Kurt Black – running & running a company

Recorded in the Bastille conference room at Kiln SLC

Kurt Black on LinkedIn

Charcoal

8th Grade English

Book Recommendation: What the CEO Wants You to Know: How Your Company Really Works by Ram Charan

This episode features Kurt Black, a successful entrepreneur, and president of Charcoal, who shares his journey and insights. Black is a goal-driven individual who values accomplishment and personal satisfaction over fame or wealth. He is also a dedicated father and husband, and these roles are central to his identity.

Black’s background in competitive running has greatly influenced his approach to business. He emphasizes the importance of sticking to a solid plan, a lesson he learned from his coach’s saying, “Dance with the girl that brung you.” He warns against getting distracted by shiny objects or constantly looking for the next pivot. Instead, he advocates focusing on doing one thing really well.

In terms of his role in the business, Black sees himself as a balance between a maker and a manager. He enjoys developing business ideas and identifying opportunities where a great idea hasn’t been executed well. At the same time, he values the management aspect of his role, providing clear direction for his team and motivating them to achieve their best.

Black’s leadership style fosters a culture of open communication and disagreement. He encourages his team to voice their opinions and engage in discussions about the best course of action. This approach, he believes, leads to better buy-in from everyone involved.

As an introvert, Black has had to learn how to navigate social situations and put on a confident front. He acknowledges the misconception that introverts don’t like people, clarifying that they do, but they recharge differently. For Black, his superpower lies in his ability to communicate effectively. He strives to explain what his company does in a way that is understandable and motivating to others.

Black’s companies, Charcoal, and 8th Grade English, can be found at charcoaldata.com and 8thge.com, respectively. Despite his success, Black remains humble and credits his achievements to the incredible people around him. He believes that his ability to inspire others and his commitment to his goals are what truly drive his success.

Kyle Knowles:
Hello there. Welcome to the Maker Manager Money podcast, a podcast about entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, founders, business owners, and business partnerships from startups to stay ups, to inspire entrepreneurs to keep going, and future entrepreneurs. To just start, it’s really a celebration of makers and managers out there making money. My name is Kyle Knowles, and I’m just trying to make some cool content at Kiln. It’s a lovely Wednesday night in Salt Lake City at the Kiln at Gateway Mall. Kiln is turning out to be my second place for some it’s church or pubs or gyms, but for me it’s Kiln. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Kiln is the Lifetime Fitness of virtual coworking and actual office space.

Today’s guest is Kurt Black, an entrepreneur and five times business founder. He is the president of Charcoal, a lead management software that helps companies buy the best leads and then convert them. He is also a partner at 8th Grade English, which is an advertising and design agency. Kurt earned a track scholarship to Weber State University, becoming a three-time all-American in the steeplechase and 5,000 meters, and was inducted into the Weber State Hall of Fame. Kurt graduated with a bachelor’s degree in business with an emphasis in finance. He started out running professionally before landing an account manager role at a marketing agency and becoming an entrepreneur. Welcome to the show, Kurt.

Kurt Black:
Thank you, Kyle. Happy to be here.

Kyle Knowles:
Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. What do you think about K`iln? This is your first time…

Kurt Black:
Fantastic. Yeah, first time I’ve been in the building and man, beautiful place. I’m thinking I need to move my office.

Kyle Knowles:
All right. I’m sure they’ve got some openings here maybe. So I just want to start out with three questions. I just started asking these recently of myself mostly, but maybe you can just explain who are you, why are here, and what do you want? And these could be philosophical, these could be just straight down to business, but these are the three big questions.

Kurt Black:
Those are bigger than big questions. Those are the essence. So the first one, why am I here? Was it the- [inaudible 00:02:19]

Kyle Knowles:
Oh, yeah. Who are you?

Kurt Black:
Who am I?

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah.

Kurt Black:
Man, that is a fantastic question. Did you distill it down to, from a religious sense or church sense or a business sense? I try to be an all around person, learn enough of the main things, but also specialize enough that I can be an expert in various elements of business. But first and foremost, I’d say I’m a dad. Dad and husband.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. So we run into each other on an elevator and you introduce yourself. What do you say?

Kurt Black:
Kurt Black, I’m happy to be here. No… Yeah. If it’s someone in a business sense, I’ll say that I’m president of Charcoal, here’s what we do. But if you’re looking to say, who am I? At the end of the day, what motivates me? What gets me up in the morning? It’s very much I’m goal driven. What do I want to accomplish? I lay those things out, and that’s my motivation.

Kyle Knowles:
So as far as your purpose, why you’re here maybe doing this podcast or why you’re in business?

Kurt Black:
A lot of people, it’s driven by money, fame, whatever. Mine is, how do I feel at the end of the day? Did I feel like I accomplished what I set out to accomplish? That’s sort of my motivation. A lot of people get wrapped up in how do I compare against competition? I love competition, but it’s not… As soon as you start comparing yourself to others in the sense of does that motivate you and drive you? Or is it a, I’m not measuring up and defeat us. It can go two ways, and especially the kids that I work with… So I also help coach Layton High cross country and track. And I’m like, utilize competition. Utilize that as motivation, but don’t let it discourage you. If you’re looking at people to see how you compare, you’re going to get discouraged. But if it’s that, Hey, see what they’re doing, I can do that. Then it’s a whole different piece.

Kyle Knowles:
To inspire you really.

Kurt Black:
Right.

Kyle Knowles:
Use the competition to inspire you.

Kurt Black:
Exactly.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. And then what do you want then out of life and being in business for yourself?

Kurt Black:
Most of the reason that… I was thinking about this a lot over the weekend was just why do I… I’m lik, I’m unemployable, but not so much that I’ve worked in the corporate realm, but I like having… You never have control. No matter what you do, you’re never in control of anything really. But I love the feeling of having that I think I’m in control because tomorrow a client could call up and be like, “Hey, we’re done.” You can be doing phenomenal work for them, but you don’t have that control. But at the same time, you feel like you do have control. Whereas when I worked in the corporate environment, I always felt like I was beholden. I couldn’t call the shots to advance my career, advance things as fast as I wanted it to go. So that was a lot of my motivation to be an entrepreneur. And I think it was just right out of college is when I started my first business, and it was just that… Yeah, I know I want to do something that’s in my power, if you will.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Let’s talk about that first business that you started then.

Kurt Black:
So the first business that I started is actually still running now. A friend and I, Guy Perry and I, right after we got out of school, there was a running shoe store in Salt Lake that was going out of business. The current owner, they were moving to Texas, so they were trying to sell it. We wanted to buy it, thought this is going to be the greatest thing ever, because we were both into running, we were both into shoes, everything like that. Thought, this is it. So we started trying to get financing to buy the business. By the time we got everything done, he kept calling me weekly, “Have you got your financing yet?” I was like, “Thanks. We’re waiting to hear back from the SBA.” Had nothing set yet. So he said, “We’re shutting down in four days,” and at that point they’d been liquidating so long that the only inventory they had left was just basically what they couldn’t sell.
So we looked at it as, okay, maybe this wasn’t supposed to happen. So that was on a Friday, they shut down. On Monday the bank called and said, “Your loan’ has gone through. Come in and sign the papers.” I’m like, we’re signing for nothing now.” But I did made a few quick calls. We were able to get the space. We were able to register the same name. So we ran out there, put a sign-up, said, “We’re reopening in three weeks.” And we got inventory in, made all the changes that we wanted to do in interior and opened back up, sort of didn’t miss a beat and it worked out great.
Did that for two years. At the same time I was doing that, I was working at [inaudible 00:08:04] Doll Smith wide as an account manager. So between the two jobs, pretty much working seven days a week, averaging about 90 hours a week. I was like, I got to do one or the other. I don’t have enough energy anymore to pull both off. So I told my business partner said, “You can buy me out, I’ll buy you out. Whichever one I’m good with.” So he decided to buy me out. So we were sporting [inaudible 00:08:33] souls at the time. He rebranded to Salt Lake Running Company, and it’s done phenomenal. His business is going great for him, and it’s fantastic. I cheer his success.

Kyle Knowles:
That’s awesome. So your life would’ve been quite different if you would’ve bought him out then?

Kurt Black:
Yeah. I think it would’ve been very different. Another friend of mine owned a Charlotte running company in North Carolina, and so I talked to him a lot and he’s up to eight stores now and a lot… So yeah, I think it would’ve been really different and it would’ve been great that way. But things have been great this way as well.

Kyle Knowles:
Well, you’ve been able to stay in running and you’re coaching and still doing all those kinds of things, so you didn’t really need to own a running store to do that.

Kurt Black:
No, no. And it would’ve been a lot of fun, but at the same time, yeah, I’ve been able to keep running with different things, like you mentioned, coaching, helping out with different… And then one of my next businesses I started was a race timing company. So then we’d be at races every weekend timing them and we did the RFID Chips and all that. So we were sort of at the beginning of that phase in Utah, picked up… We had all the St. George races, a lot of the [inaudible 00:09:57] long Wasatch front. It was a blast, but that was another one as well. At a certain point, that’s a lot of work.

Kyle Knowles:
Anytime you’re dealing with events.

Kurt Black:
Exactly.

Kyle Knowles:
It’s so much work. There’s so much work to do.

Kurt Black:
People have no idea how much goes into behind the scenes.

Kyle Knowles:
Awesome. Can you just pull this a little bit?

Kurt Black:
Yeah.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah, yeah.

Kurt Black:
Right there?

Kyle Knowles:
Just a little bit closer. Yeah, thanks. We’ll edit that out in post-production. So I want to talk about running just a little bit more, because it has been such a huge part of your life. And can you just set the stage for when you started running and have you stopped competitively or what’s your status now? So take me cradle to grave. Well, don’t take me to grave yet, but take me cradle to the current time you running.

Kurt Black:
All right. So this could be a really long story. I’ll try to-

Kyle Knowles:
I’ll love it.

Kurt Black:
… keep it somewhat brief. So I started running… I grew up in Blanding, Utah, which is southeast corner of the state. Grew up, my grandpa had a large farm. We used to go down there and chase rabbits around the field and everything. So I’d say that’s how I started running. And then in junior high, my brother took me to a road race and I just loved it. Thought that was the greatest thing ever. All the road races, we lived up in Cache Valley at that point and then joined cross-country team. But I think where things really took off is we moved to Oregon at the beginning of my sophomore year of high school, and I had a coach up there. So the same time I [inaudible 00:11:40] myself as a wrestler, which dripping wet I was a hundred pounds and they were trying to get me to 98. And no matter what I did, the lowest I could get was 99 and a half.
So I was in a wrestling match and I got put in a hold, and I don’t know if he pulled a tendon in my arm or whatever, but I couldn’t move my arm for about a week. So while I was waiting to get back to wrestling, I went and talked to the track coach and said, “Hey, can I run with you during the winter while I’m rehabbing here? And then I’ll come out and run track in the spring.” He’s like, “Sure.” So I started running with him. I was like, I enjoy this a lot more than the other. Well, he not only was a good coach, but he made you become a fan of the sport. And that was really my first introduction to track and to road racing and really everything.

Kyle Knowles:
How did he make you a fan of the sport?

Kurt Black:
He took us to… So Eugene, Oregon is the hotbed of track and field. He took us to the NCAA championships to watch those. And oddly enough, the guy that recruited me to Weber won the steeplechase the day before we went to watch and I saw it. I’d opened the paper, saw his name. I was like, “Farley Gerber from Weber State. I wonder who… What the heck?” And then Ed Eyestone had won, the current coach at BYU, he’d won the 10,000 meters the day before as well. So we got to go watch that. It was just electric in there. And then he took us to the pre-funding classic, which is sort of a professional meet that happens in the spring, or sorry, summer down there. And between those two, I was hooked. I was like, “This is the greatest thing ever.”
Well, after that, at the end of that summer is when we moved to Kaysville. So I started my junior year at Davis High and then became… Did okay, I was 33rd in state as a junior. Everybody’s like, “33rd, where’d you come from?” Well, then I went on a good little growth spurt, trained quite a bit harder, ended up winning state in cross country in the 3,200. And then the coach from Weber came and had been recruiting me a little bit, but he came and said, “You come here. I’ll make you an All-American.” And that was sort of the, “Done, let’s do it.”
So everything from that point on, and a lot of what I’ve learned in for business was through that coach, he just had a lot of different things that… His big saying was, “Plan your race and race your plan.” And that applies to life. It’s really plan out what you’re going to do and then execute that. And that’s what we did. Everything was… I knew exactly what was going to happen in every race before I went in, and then I would just have to execute against that. So he had a lot of great teachings. I mean, not just being a great coach. He was a great teacher at the same time.
So finished up at Weber. Finished third at the NCAA championships, lost by 18 hundredths of a second, was the closest finish they’ve had in the steeplechase I think in history. The top four were just within 0.2, five seconds of each other. Went to USA Nationals, was placed fourth in the nation there, ranked fourth in the US that year. And then went and raced in Europe, Japan, a few others, and then ended up getting injured and just never had got back.
So now I run, I’m a recreational jogger, if you will. Now it’s more, “Okay, how much weight do I need to lose? All right, I’m out there.” But I ended up doing about… Well, it’s been 10 years ago now, some friends and I were like, “Hey, let’s do an Ironman.” I’m like, “All right, I’ve never done a triathlon, but let’s give it a shot.” So we all jumped onto register. I was the only one that got in. So I’m like, “I got to do this by myself.” Ended up training for a year, went down to Tampa, Arizona. There’s a sign in, they’re like, “What Ironman is this for you?” I said, “It’s my first.” I said, “It’s actually my first triathlon ever.” And they’re like, “Are you insane?” I was like, “Hey, go big or go home. I’m going to get this over with right at the beginning.” Toughest thing I’ve ever done, but just an amazing experience too.

Kyle Knowles:
The full triathlon, you did the full thing?

Kurt Black:
2.4 swim, 112 bike, marathon at the end.

Kyle Knowles:
Oh, my word.

Kurt Black:
And you question your existence multiple times, but yeah, there’s nothing like it when you finish that race.

Kyle Knowles:
I bet.

Kurt Black:
So it was quite the experience had a hard time walking for about a month after… Well, it was more, it wasn’t the soreness, it just drains every last bit out of you just for a month after. I’m just like, I got nothing. I’m just, I’m here.

Kyle Knowles:
And you did this 10 years ago?

Kurt Black:
Yeah. 2012. Yeah, end of 2012.

Kyle Knowles:
So have you done any competitive thing like that since then? Or is that-

Kurt Black:
I’ve done two half Ironmans since then, but now I need to pick another one and go. That’s half the battle is just saying, “Okay, I’m doing that one.” And then you’re motivated to- [inaudible 00:17:36]

Kyle Knowles:
You’re committed, you get in with the lottery or you sign up and now you’re committed.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, because if you’re just like, “I think at some point I’ll do a race.” It’s pretty easy to… Bed’s warm in the morning during the winter, it’s hard to get out.

Kyle Knowles:
I see a lot of people, it’s exciting to sign up for one of those, and you get all that energy and then you’re like, now the work begins.

Kurt Black:
Now it starts.

Kyle Knowles:
So you sign up, it’s exciting. And then when you finish, it’s exciting. But everything in between that no one sees… Because you can talk to a lot of people, “I signed up for a marathon.” Oh yeah, you get a lot of shine from that or that you finished one, but all that work that goes into it. How did you train for your first?

Kurt Black:
So what’s weird is I never… Everything I did in the race other than the marathon, because I’d run a few marathons before, but every other thing I did, that was the farthest I’d ever gone in that. So my longest swim was two miles. We swim 2.4. My longest bike ride was a hundred miles. I’d done 200-mile rides. And I’m like, God, I needed to do… I should have done more. But it’s just time constraints, you feel like you’re just leave your family for a year as you’re getting ready for that. Did what I could and worked. I was able to finish still. But-

Kyle Knowles:
Did you already know how to swim?

Kurt Black:
No- [inaudible 00:19:04]

Kyle Knowles:
Did you have to take some classes to- [inaudible 00:19:06]

Kurt Black:
No, I should have, that would’ve been smart. But I-

Kyle Knowles:
… take some time off.

Kurt Black:
… like to do things the hard way. So no. I had a friend of mine that had done some Ironman. They’re like, “Can I go to the pool with you and just watch you? And then I’ll just try to replicate that.” And it took me… So I started swimming in November. I went up to Pine View in June, and that was the first time I swam over a mile with my face constant, doing the constant face in the water breathing side. Up until then, I’d never swam with my face in the water. I always had the head out, paddling, and that was… I was like, “Man, seven months.” But then as soon as it clicked, I was good to go from that point on. But boy, it took a long time for that to click and get that breathing rhythm down. But yeah, I was probably the most worried about that portion of it just because I was like, I know I’m weak here. But it ended up being, for me, the best one of the three.

Kyle Knowles:
And sorry if I missed this, where was the triathlon?

Kurt Black:
Oh, it was in Tempe, Arizona.

Kyle Knowles:
Tempe Arizona.

Kurt Black:
Yeah.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. And did you swim in fresh water?

Kurt Black:
Yeah. So you swim… Have you been to the Tempe Town Lake?

Kyle Knowles:
No.

Kurt Black:
So they have a, it’s downtown Tampa, and it’s more of a river, it’s like a standing river, if you will. And the whole reason I picked that is I hate cold water. I thought, okay, Tempe, Arizona, it’s going to be nice and warm. Oh man, they let us come down and do a practice swim the day before I put my feet in, I was like, that was a year of wasted training. There’s no way I’m getting in that water tomorrow.

Kyle Knowles:
But you had to.

Kurt Black:
But then the next day I was just like, okay, just jump in and just see how long before you got hypothermia. And then once you got going you finally kind of warmed up a little bit. And then that first 600 meters of the swim, you just get beat to death and you sort of forget about the cold-

Kyle Knowles:
Because people [inaudible 00:21:17] you’re getting kicked.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. You’ve got a thousand people starting at the same time and you’re just trying to find a lane some avenue to not get beat to death. I got my goggles kicked off. Your feet are getting chopped. It’s just a mad house. But it was really, really amazing though. Once it thins out a little bit, then you’re like, okay, now I can get into a stroke rhythm and go.

Kyle Knowles:
And how long was the swim portion for you?

Kurt Black:
So for me, it was an hour 20 that I was in the water. And then, let’s see, I’m trying to remember. I was 14 hours total for bike, swim, and run. And the run, I thought I’d do a lot better, but my nutrition… The first three miles were fantastic. I was like, “Man, I’m going to sail through this thing.” Then boy, just my nutrition caught up to me and oh, I paid dearly.

Kyle Knowles:
What was your lack of nutrition, just during training or you didn’t eat anything that day or-

Kurt Black:
No, I was eating, but my biggest mistake was when I would bike doing those a hundred milers, I was like, I knew Ensure had a ton of calories in a small thing. So I’m like, perfect. I’ll take Ensures while I’m on the bike. Well, I never did do a bike to run transition. I’d just finish my hundred-mile ride and then be like, okay, workout’s in for the day. And there’s something about that lactose based that just will mess your stomach up like nothing else once you start running and oh man, it was just one of those, I feel like I’m just going to explode. It’s just brutal. But then they had Coke at mile 10. They had it earlier, but about the mile 10 aid station, I was like, I got to take something. So I drank Coke and it just calmed everything. I was like, all right, I’m back. I’ll finish. But yeah, mistakes you’ll learn from. I would say I’ll for the next time, but yeah, I doubt there’s going to be a next time.

Kyle Knowles:
You’re not going to do a full one?

Kurt Black:
I don’t know if I’d do another full one. It takes a lot of time. Like you’ve mentioned just that time between registration and finish is just a lot of work. The half Ironmans are great because they’re a challenge, but-

Kyle Knowles:
They’re doable.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, they’re doable.

Kyle Knowles:
I used to feel the same way about a half-marathon. It was like the perfect run.

Kurt Black:
And they really are.

Kyle Knowles:
Because you still feel okay the next day and it doesn’t completely deplete you, but a marathon-

Kurt Black:
Marathon- [inaudible 00:24:08]

Kyle Knowles:
It’s been a long time since I’ve done one, but I’ve done three.

Kurt Black:
Oh, have you?

Kyle Knowles:
And I just remember doing the St. George Marathon and after finishing, we were driving to go get something to eat and we’d pass some cows. And I literally in my head, thought that I could just go tackle a cow and just literally start eating it just raw.

Kurt Black:
Exactly.

Kyle Knowles:
Because whatever you’re depleted of… I mean, you’re dying basically, and your body’s saying, give me that protein or something because yeah, [inaudible 00:24:40] I can only imagine on a full triathlon it would be 10 times as bad.

Kurt Black:
Mine was just at mile 24 of St. George. I’m like, oh, if I saw somebody with a Mountain Dew, I would’ve killed them and taken it. I was like, that’s all I want. I didn’t-

Kyle Knowles:
That sugar rusher.

Kurt Black:
Wow.

Kyle Knowles:
Well, so what are some of the… I don’t know. So I’m thinking about these companies you’ve started and trying to relate all your history of running and competition, and are there certain things that you say that your coach used to say to employees for example? Do you say things to employees that your coach used to say? Or are there lessons, or when you think about something, is there any of that running experience that comes into your businesses?

Kurt Black:
A little bit on that part. A lot of that’s more internal that I follow a lot of what he said. But one of the things that he would always stress that I just would always crack me up, he’d always say, “Dance with the girl that brung you.” And I was like, there’s something about that that is in… Seems like in business now, everybody’s looking for the pivot. What are we going to? And it’s like if you’ve got a solid plan, stick with that plan because there’s always going to be shiny objects every which way. But if you can dial in and do that thing really well, that’s where success is, in my experience. Sometimes you do need where it’s just like, “Hey, our business is obsolete. We’ve got to figure out what’s next.” But I think a lot of people get so caught up in, “Oh, they’re doing that. We better do that.” Or something along those lines that they lose sight of, what are we really trying to do here?

Kyle Knowles:
Okay, dance with the girl that brung you.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. He was old farm boy.

Kyle Knowles:
I like that. I like that. So the sticktoitiveness, the focus and staying on track.Yeah, I like that. So are you more of a maker or a manager?

Kurt Black:
We talked about that a little bit. And I think I’m sort of in between. I’m not afraid to steal somebody’s good idea in the sense of if something’s out there and I think I can do something with that, I’m good with that. But I also realize I know I’m not the smartest person in the room and everyone I work with will tell you the same thing, that I’m not the smartest person in the room. So hiring people and being able to motivate them and just provide a clear direction. I look at a lot of what I do now in that vein. It’s like, okay, where are we going as a company now? I need the people to be able to do what we’re doing. And luckily the last couple of businesses, I’ve got unbelievable people around me and it’s more of their success than anything that I’m doing. I’ll give them credit all day every day.

Kyle Knowles:
So the management part, the manager part, that’s the role you’re really in mostly. But you also have some of that maker as far as coming up with business ideas and I don’t know, just out there making things happen and vision.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, I love looking at is there a business where it just hasn’t been executed well/ great idea, but just they haven’t executed on what could be. I’d love to say, “Okay, here’s what we can do with this and that.” But I also love the management part to get there as well. So yeah, that’s a tough one because when you look at it, yeah, I’m not a hundred percent a maker and I’m not a hundred percent a manager. I’m sort of at 50/50, if you will.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah, that’s a dual threat. It’s a dual threat combination. But I’ve talked to a few entrepreneurs and it’s like some of them that are hardcore makers and then they’ve had to transition into management. It’s kind of a harder transition than someone that kind of likes that management piece.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, no, totally agree. I think there are people that are good with people and there are people that just put them in a room, let them do their thing, and they’ll accomplish miracles, but they have to manage other people and do that in is a whole different piece of… Whole different skill set a lot of times.

Kyle Knowles:
So what is your superpower then?

Kurt Black:
My superpower? I would say hopefully, I try to think what would other people say is my superpower, because for me to say, “I’m really good at this,” that just doesn’t come naturally. But I hope other people would look at me and say he’s good at talking with people. Not convincing, but I hate to use words selling because it’s like I look at it more as can I explain what we do in a way that they understand and it motivates them to use what we do? If we can do that, then we’re good. There was an old CTO, I worked the CTO of a DSW, he was just amazing. I mean just brilliant in what he was doing. Technology at the time. He could figure anything out. Richard Schroer, you may know him or known him, he passed away. But I always looked at him as like, man, half of his success was, it wasn’t that he was really smart, it was that he could describe everything he did in layman’s terms to where anyone could understand exactly what he was doing and how it affected the business and everything.
And I was like, that’s an amazing trait to have and if you can do that, that’s half the battle. Because a lot of times people are like, I don’t know what you’re… Anytime I say, “Oh, I do lead management people.” They’re like, “What’s a lead?” If I can walk them through of okay, here’s what we do, here’s how we do it, here’s what it’s going to do for you. If I can do that successfully, then we usually will get the business.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. So was your mom or dad an entrepreneur? Does it run in your family at all?

Kurt Black:
Yeah, so my dad was, interestingly enough, he was a concert pianist growing up and college and that. So he continued, had his own piano tuning business and just ran that from… And then also did insurance as well on the side. And I was just like, I want that ability to be able to call my own shots and things like that. So he was always that the model of why I think I was attracted to entrepreneurship was just that that’s what I want. I have no musical ability like he did, but he worked out. It didn’t come easily. He worked at it extremely hard, but that business that he was able to do afterwards and made a career was I was like, okay, if I can figure out something that I can do well and I can have my own show.

Kyle Knowles:
So do you feel like you were in inspired by that or at least had some confidence based on seeing your dad make it working for himself?

Kurt Black:
Yeah, I think a lot of that is if he would’ve worked a corporate job, it may have been, would look at that and be like, “Hey, that’s the route to go. Great thing.” But I think seeing him be able to have a business and you see the ups and downs, so you have a little bit of that… It’s just signing up for the race in the end. There’s a lot of up and down that people don’t see until you hit the end. And knowing that, I think that expectation was set then. So when things go down, it’s not the, “Well it’s all over now and pack the bags, it was roll with the punches, be able to stomach the ups and downs.” And I’ve had one friend that’s like, “Entrepreneurship is the highest highs and the lowest lows.” And I’m like, “That sums it up right there.”

Kyle Knowles:
That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. So talk to me about lead management then, because there’s kind of a history of a couple of different companies, if I’m understanding your entrepreneurial journey. So go back to when this began, this lead management idea and businesses that you’ve been involved with. Just talk about your career path with lead management.

Kurt Black:
Perfect. So I got into the lead management side of things somewhat with DATAMARK. So they used to do lead management for for-profit schools. So Corinthian Colleges, rest in peace, a lot of Ashworth College, they had almost all the big for-profit colleges at the time. And those schools managed leads and marketing span better than I think still have ever seen it out there. They just had it dialed in completely. Well, I worked more on the pay-per-click side of things. I managed a pay-per-click team, a email marketing team, more on that end, but saw what was happening on the lead management side and an affiliate team. And then they moved me into a role where I was just supposed to figure out, okay, what businesses should we get into now? What are some new technology trends that we should adopt, bring in? I was presenting four new business ideas a month to the board say, “Here’s what’s out there, is this something that we can make money at or is it just a passing fad?”
So that was my whole job for a time and loved it. Then had the opportunity to move to ThomasARTS. They wanted to take what was being done with for-profit education into the insurance space. So some friends and I went up to start working with them, built the lead management system and it was like, man, this is really new to insurance. They’re just starting to understand what can be done. And they started running into some financial difficulties at the time. We made the proposal, how about we jump out, lease the software and we’ll pay it off as quickly as we can get clients and everything. And to Dave Thomas’s credit, he agreed to it, gave us the go ahead. We went out and shortly after that American Family put their account up. We went out and it was funny because talking to our client afterwards, he said, “I got to tell you guys what was going on behind the scenes.”
And I’m like, “Ah, this is the part I love. What was happening behind the scenes so we’ll know for the next time.” He said, “What happened was when we went in.” So we did the written proposal. He said, “You were top three, that’s why you got to come in and do the proposal, do the verbal or presentation.” He said, “You were a distant, distant second.” He said, “We knew we were going with Axiom, which was a billion-dollar company. We were startup mode basically.” And he said, “When you guys walked out the door, we all knew that we had to go with you because you were bringing a different way to do this that we knew we needed to have.” And I was like, “God, that is fascinating.” And he said, “Just your whole approach. We utilized a lot of what we’d done with the for for-profit education and just applied it to the insurance field and said, ‘Okay, here’s what we can do as far as our scrubbing goes, all of that.’”
So we got that account launched. It was funny because after we launched they said, “You’re the first vendor we’ve had that actually launched when you said you were going to launch.” Was like, “I didn’t know we had an option.” But it goes back to that execute, plan it, execute. So we pulled it off and within a month we had doubled their conversion rate. They were just ecstatic and had a great relationship with them then. So that company was called LeadAmp is what we jumped out to. I put in a proposal to present at a big conference in New York and they asked me to present at that conference. So I presented, here’s what a lead management system should do, here’s what your corporate program should look like. And I got done and I was walking back and this lady came up and she said, “Hey, I need to talk to you further. You and your business partner available for breakfast>” I said, “Yeah, that’d be great.” Didn’t know who she was. Like 10 people come for breakfast. And it was my business partner and I as well. And she said, “We’re from State Farm.”
I’m like, “Holy smokes.” They’re the 800 pound gorilla in the space. So she said, “We need you to come out, walk us through what we can do.” And make a long story short, we got right to the end and they said, “You’re too small. We only work with companies that are big.” And I was like, “You got to be kidding me.” Or she goes, “We need what you guys do, but we just don’t do business with companies your size.” I’m like, “What if we sold?” She said, “Almost a for sure then.” So we’d been talking with Clearlink a little bit, but we weren’t set, but we went back and said, “If you buy us, you’re almost guaranteed to five X your money the second we close.” So they took a risk because it wasn’t a done deal. But sure enough, as soon as we signed the contract, we got the signed contract from State Farm, they [inaudible 00:40:33] money. It was like, oh, what could have been? But it worked out good. I can’t complain.

Kyle Knowles:
So you stayed on with- [inaudible 00:40:45]

Kurt Black:
So then I stayed on with Clearlink for about three years, and then my CTO and I and my VP of media… So she’s the one that works with all the vendors. We all left at the same time. At that point I thought, I’m out of the lead business, done it for too long. Let’s go back to the advertising world. And that’s where I bought in as a partner with 8th Grade English. I’d been gone about 11 months. And they called and said, “This has been a disaster since you guys left. Would you want-

Kyle Knowles:
Who called?

Kurt Black:
American Family called back and they said, “Would you want to get back in?” So I said, “Hadn’t even thought about it. Let me call my CTL and see what he thinks.” He’s like, “Yeah, all those things we were talking about that we wanted to do, let’s do it and I’ll rewrite the software, add in all the things that we wanted in there.” Said, “All right, let’s go.” So I brought him on and he wrote it all and a short time after… We went out to American Family and said, “Okay, is there anything that we didn’t have that you would’ve liked to have had?” They had a couple suggestions. So we wrote that into the initial program as well, or initial software. Then about six months later, they moved it all over to us. So we’ve had them now for almost two years. So it’s been a good program.

Kyle Knowles:
So Clearlink signed with State Farm, but then later they signed with American Family?

Kurt Black:
So we brought American family to them. So they were-

Kyle Knowles:
As well.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. So when the- [inaudible 00:42:31]

Kyle Knowles:
So American family was already with you- [inaudible 00:42:33]

Kurt Black:
Yeah.

Kyle Knowles:
You did the talk in New York, you talked to State Farm, and then State Farm said we’d go with you, but you’re too small.

Kurt Black:
Yeah.

Kyle Knowles:
You sold to Clearlink and then-

Kurt Black:
Then we got State Farm as a client.

Kyle Knowles:
So they were one of your original customers.

Kurt Black:
Yeah.

Kyle Knowles:
And then they followed you from LeadAmp to Clearlink to-

Kurt Black:
To Charcoal. So they’re good group of people. I mean, they’re sort of a dream clan, if you will. They respect what we do, and they’re one of those that you have meetings and it’s a true collaboration. Like, “Hey, what’s working? What’s not? What can we do better? Where are we?” And they’ll listen to us as far as, “Hey, that’s a great idea. Let’s implement that.” We’ve brought them a several different things that said, “Hey, you don’t have to do this. We’re not going to make any additional money, but we think it’ll be a good thing for your program.” “Let’s do it.” And they’re a really good symbiotic relationship.

Kyle Knowles:
A true partnership.

Kurt Black:
Yeah.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Charcoal then… So explain again how you’re splitting your time, because you’re kind of like Jack Dorsey with Twitter, right? It’s like you’re kind of going back and forth between, or Elon Musk with Twitter and-

Kurt Black:
SpaceX.

Kyle Knowles:
… We’ve got a couple of different companies going on. And how do you manage your day or your week?

Kurt Black:
So most of the time… I’d say at least 80% of the day is more Charcoal focused. And then the 20% I worked with several different clients. So I had mentioned EDCUtah, I worked with them. We’re working on a new project with a group in Minneapolis, so I’ll do a little bit there and it’s more of an account manager role. I need to do more on the new business end, but we’ll probably have to hire somebody that can just go out and do the business. New business front of at, but most of the other stuff is run by one of my other partners. And then Doug Durden is the designer behind the scenes making everything look awesome.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. And what kind of services do you offer with 8th Grade English?

Kurt Black:
So we do most everything. So where we’re really strong is in the design aspect of it. And we look at it as all of our clients have been with us for 10 plus years and it’s because what we do… I think a lot of agencies and what I saw with the agencies as I was developing in my career, it wasn’t always first about the client. It was first about is this going to make us look good? If the client looks good as well, great. But it wasn’t so much the client first, we’ve really taken that… We don’t even submit our work for award shows. It’s just that no, we don’t care. We’ve all been around… We’ve won awards, we don’t really care. It’s like, are we advancing your business? Do you look good to your bosses? That’s what we care about and it’s work. They stay stick with us. It’s been a good formula.

Kyle Knowles:
And how did someone come up with the name of 8th Grade English then?

Kurt Black:
So oddly enough, we were originally called Gray Matter and we all… So when I bought in the partnership, we sort of hated that name just because there was a, what was it? Gray Matter Elite. And I’m like-

Kyle Knowles:
I don’t know what that is.

Kurt Black:
… It was another agency. And I’m like, so we can’t be Gray Matter because there’s one better than us. There’s Gray Matter Elite.

Kyle Knowles:
You could have changed it to Gray Matter the Bestest.

Kurt Black:
Exactly. It was going down that road. So I was like, we got to do something different. And so we just brainstormed a ton of names and oddly enough, my partner’s son was like, “How about 8th Grade English?” I’m like, “Yeah, I don’t think there’s any other company out there with that.” And then my son came up with the idea for the logo with the girl, with her head on the desk, because that’s what everybody thinks of 8th Grade English. We thought it was funny as well, so let’s do this. And we went with that name and identity and it’s been fun.

Kyle Knowles:
That’s awesome. Your copy isn’t all written in eighth grade-

Kurt Black:
Exactly.

Kyle Knowles:
… English is it?

Kurt Black:
No- [inaudible 00:47:35]

Kyle Knowles:
It might be sixth grade English-

Kurt Black:
… step it up English-

Kyle Knowles:
… I that’s-

Kurt Black:
It could be fourth grade humor. It could be senior. We don’t know.

Kyle Knowles:
Aren’t newspapers written in sixth grade English or something like that?

Kurt Black:
It might be.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah, it’s something like that. Oh, that’s great. So you mentioned your dad was a pianist, but you’re not a musician then.

Kurt Black:
Sadly, I’m trying to learn the banjo. That’s going to be my thing.

Kyle Knowles:
And was Steve Martin the inspiration for that, or what was the inspiration for going for the banjo-

Kurt Black:
I don’t know what was the inspiration. But then when I saw Steve Martin play, I was just like, “Oh my gosh, he’s amazing.”

Kyle Knowles:
He’s legit.

Kurt Black:
He’s totally legit. I didn’t know he was that good until I saw a special of he and Martin Short had done a special just recently. And I was just watching that thinking, holy macro. I had no idea he was that good. I mean he’s just amazing. But yeah, there’s always been something humorous to me about the banjo, but I also love the sound of it, so I’m just like, I got to figure this out at some point.

Kyle Knowles:
It’s a guitar with a snare drum- [inaudible 00:48:38]

Kurt Black:
Exactly. And I got into the Mumford and Sons sound. I was like, okay, I need to figure that out.

Kyle Knowles:
So do you practice every night or what’s your-

Kurt Black:
No, I need to get in a routine. I’ll do really good for a week. And then it’s like something will come up and I get thrown off completely and it’s like, okay, I’ve got to just make it a habit. You hear that do do anything for 30 days and it becomes a habit, I’ve got to get to the 30 days.

Kyle Knowles:
So what’s the number one song you want to play on the banjo?

Kurt Black:
Any of the Mumford and Sons. If I can learn that… Little Lion Man. I’ll be like, okay. Hit it.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. Okay. What’s something that most people don’t know about you?

Kurt Black:
Golly, you know what’s interesting? And you’d probably be like, “Oh, yeah, I knew that.” But the high school and before I was just deathly shy, would take those Myers-Briggs tests that would show, are you an extrovert or introvert and add all the different, are you this or that? I looked at an old one and I think my line just about touch the full introvert. And that was a thing that I had a teammate that sort of started bringing me out of my shell. And then-

Kyle Knowles:
In college?

Kurt Black:
… In college, yeah. And then after doing an LDS mission, I think that really brought me out there was just like, people are okay. I was always in the, okay, just don’t get hit by anyone. Just stay low, do your thing. And it was like, you know what? I actually like people and it’s still hard for me to go up and be, “Hey.” I’ve got a friend that is unbelievable at that. He just, he’ll walk up to anybody. “Hi, I’m so-and-so.” I’m just like, I want to get to that point, but I’m not there yet. But I’ve had to come out of my shell as well, just for business. I don’t know if you remember who Tony Hsieh was from… Oh, what’s the shoe brand or shoe store that Amazon bought?

Kyle Knowles:
Zappos.

Kurt Black:
Zappos. He was the CEO of that. And I read his book and he talked about how that was so uncomfortable to him. But he’s like, if I’m going to be CEO, these are things I have to do. And I get that now. If I’m going to be in this role, there are things I’ve got to do and step out of my comfort zone. And when you do, it’s like, this isn’t that bad. I can do this.

Kyle Knowles:
You have to play the part sometimes.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. And the more you do that, the more it starts to become natural too.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah. It’s interesting that you said, I do like people or whatever because I think there is a misconception about introverts that they don’t like people, but they actually do. It’s just their battery doesn’t get charged being around people. Where extroverts, their battery gets charged being around people.

Kurt Black:
For sure.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah, I’m an introvert too. So I do like people and I like talking to people and things like that. But if I’m in an all day, for example, sales conference for hours on end around people, I can’t wait till that night where I can just be alone in my hotel room and recharge my battery.

Kurt Black:
Oh, the cocktail mixer is just pain for me. And I don’t drink, so that’s already one, but I’ll have my Coke. And it’s just, oh, how soon can this end?

Kyle Knowles:
Exactly, exactly. All right, so this is a kind of a crazy question here and pardon my French, but who is your bullshit detector because every CEO I think needs a bullshit detector.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, I agree.

Kyle Knowles:
Because you’re the CEO and everyone looks to you and you have all the answers, but maybe some of your answers aren’t correct.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. Well, at home my wife is that, plays that role. But in the office I think we’ve tried to develop a culture of, “Hey, if it’s wrong, call it.” And I’d much rather have disagreement that we talk through of, okay, what’s the best route to go? Let’s talk about the pros and cons. What’s this and that? And then let’s make a decision. And usually that way then you see the end result, everyone buys in. But if it’s that, “We’re doing this jump on board or die,” you don’t get that as much. I always hated that.
I had a lot of bosses where you couldn’t say, “Hey, you sure?” Or you’re thinking about this part. And in the office now it’s like, “No, if this is a crazy idea tell me now.” Because from my point of view, it looks awesome. But there have been a couple times where, “Have you thought of this, this, this?” “Thank you. You saved us a lot of pain.” And it was stuff that I was so like shiny keys, let’s go. And it was like, “No, there are a lot of things that could really derail this.” And it was like, “Ah, thanks for pointing that out.” And then we came up with something that was still motivating to everyone, but way less risk. And I’m like… I hope I cultivated that enough in the office. And I think we’re there where anybody can chime in and say… And there are times when it’s like, “Yeah, I get that risk, but it’s a risk that’s worth taking.” Or that might be a, “Nah, that’s a lot of risk with not enough payoff for it to succeed.”

Kyle Knowles:
So the detector is just really the culture itself that allows people to disagree and kind of share their viewpoints with you?

Kurt Black:
Yeah, a hundred percent. I think it’s that, like I said, I’m not the smartest guy in the room. There’s a lot of smarter people in the office than I am. I’d much rather have their input, opinions and I think they’re comfortable sharing those as well.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. That’s awesome. So I want to talk about you’ve transitioned out of corporate and into corporate and then out of corporate a couple of different times. So what did you find? So I know when you had, with ThomasARTS, you left to start a company. So you were in corporate and then you left and then you went to Clearlink, Clearlink bought you. So talk about, you have your own company and then being bought in those three years or whatever you were at Clearlink and what was that transition like and what were the things going back into corporate that maybe, what was the good about going back into corporate and what was the bad?

Kurt Black:
The good, I think there’s a false sense of security in the-

Kyle Knowles:
Paycheck every two weeks.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. That you don’t have to think about that as much in a way and for good or for bad.

Kyle Knowles:
Less hustling basically.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. You’re just like-

Kyle Knowles:
Or stress about-

Kurt Black:
… do my thing as long as the client doesn’t leave or whatever, job’s here. But when you’re out in the entrepreneur world or running a business, it’s that, “Okay, I’ve got to be thinking six months, a year down the road and I’m not able to just be like, ‘Oh, as long as we just keep doing what we’re doing, we’re good.’” I think there were positives. I think a lot of the corporate world, it was that when I get another business going, what were the things like I don’t want that in this company.
I want it to be an open environment of… And I think you do hit a point where some of the companies that I’ve been a part of working for someone, it was awesome. And then they’ll get bought out and it’s everything changes and they’re like, “Everything’s going to stay the same.” And it’s just like, I’ve been through that enough that it’s like nothing stays the same. It’s no matter what’s, things are going to change. And when you’re an entrepreneur or have your own business, you get to call those shots a lot more and can control that aspect a lot better.

Kyle Knowles:
So is it more culture that you control?

Kurt Black:
Yeah. I think it’s a lot more the culture-

Kyle Knowles:
The vibe-

Kurt Black:
… and the vibe and-

Kyle Knowles:
… the way things get decided and how fast you can make decisions. Is that-

Kurt Black:
Right. So one of the things that… And I don’t want to hammer or talk bad about Clearlink, but at the time there was a, “Clearlink is your family, it’s- [inaudible 00:58:34]

Kyle Knowles:
Your home away from home.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. “You come and have fun here and everything.” And I’m like, I hate that, but I want to spend time with my family. I’m going to come in, I’m going to do my job, I’m going to get everything done that needs to be done, but I don’t want to hang out here. So for me, that was a tough, going into that environment, I was just like… And a lot of people like that and love it. And I was just like, that’s awesome. But where we’re at now, everyone knows exactly what… I’m like, we’re extremely efficient because we know where everybody is and where they’re good and their weaknesses as well. And we can compensate or help out in all those different things.
It’s get in, do the job, make the client happy, but have a life outside. I don’t want you here at 10:00 PM. Like, “Hey, let’s play another game of ping pong and then we’ll get…” It’s like, “No, I’d rather go home and hang out there.”

Kyle Knowles:
That makes sense.

Kurt Black:
So I think that’s a lot of it. And for a lot of people it’s like, “No.” And when I first started at DSW, I was more of that, “Hey, this is an awesome… I’m here 65-70 hours a week.”

Kyle Knowles:
These are my friends, these are my family.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. And I was young and single and I was like, yeah, that was great. But as you get farther down in your career, it’s just like, no. I’m doing my job, do it well and then I want a life outside.

Kyle Knowles:
So if someone came to you and said they wanted to start a business, what’s the first piece of advice that you’d give to them?

Kurt Black:
There was a book I read… God, it’s been years ago. It was called What the CEO Wants You to Know, Ram Charan, I believe. And I’m like, “Read that, understand it and put it into practice before you’re ready to jump out.” Because when you’re going to start something, you have to think like a CEO. And that’s what his whole thing was. Even if you’re in the corporate environment, what would the CEO want you to do in your job? And it puts it in a whole different line because a lot of times you get so caught up in the minutiae, the day to day it’s like, but how’s that affecting the bottom line? What’s that going to do for profitability later on? Things like that.
So if you start with that mindset of like, okay, I’m thinking bigger picture all the time. If you apply that in your corporate job, because everybody has to start out… It’s rare that somebody’s just like, “I’m going to start a business tomorrow. I’m 21 years old start,” that’s a rarity. Those that do it, awesome, but it’s not the norm. And I think as long as you can put that into practice, even though you may not feel like you’re able to influence a whole lot in your current role, it’s start thinking in that direction.

Kyle Knowles:
And that’s What the CEO Wants You to Know is the name of the book?

Kurt Black:
Yeah. And it’s been out… God, I think I read that in 2007 or so, but it was sort of a… God, that’s the first time I’ve really been like, “Oh, I’ve got to really worry about big picture on everything.”

Kyle Knowles:
All right, I like that answer. So is there any other book that you recommend the most to people?

Kurt Black:
God, a lot of… I’ve read a lot of business books. I used to read a lot of self-confidence books because- [inaudible 01:02:41]

Kyle Knowles:
Self development and self-confidence. Yeah.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. I’m like, “God, I have no confidence. I need to…” And at the end of the day I’m like, “You know what? You just got to do?” You can read every book in the world, but until you put that into practice, you’re not going to have confidence. Confidence comes from getting beat, beat a lot. And then you see, hey, I can come out of that. I can rise above that. But you have to get beat down a few times and everybody’s got failures along the way. If you don’t, something’s… You’re a blessed individual… Well, you might be a cursed individual. But as far as different books, God, I don’t know if there’s one in particular now I’m like into the podcasting. So when I run, when I work in the yard, whatever, I’m listening to various podcasts.

Kyle Knowles:
What’s your go-to podcast?

Kurt Black:
I listen to Tim Ferriss a lot. I’ve listened to him for a number of years. Lex Fridman’s podcast I’ll listen to quite a bit. Huberman Lab now that I need to watch things a little closer. It used to be that, “Hey, I just drink Mountain Dew all day and run. I’m good.” Now the metabolism’s not quite there like it used to be, but I’ll try to vary things up a little bit. Making [inaudible 01:04:14] on my list from now on.

Kyle Knowles:
You’ve got a couple episodes to listen to.

Kurt Black:
Exactly, exactly. I think this is… You’ve done 11 now, how many [inaudible 01:04:22]?

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah. I’ve interviewed 11. So you’re my 12th guest, so thank you.

Kurt Black:
Perfect.

Kyle Knowles:
That’s awesome. Well, let’s get to the lightning round questions. These are just easy as could be. Well, what’s your favorite candy bar?

Kurt Black:
Oh, Snickers has always been my go-to.

Kyle Knowles:
Favorite musical artist?

Kurt Black:
Ah, God. I’m an eighties, like Van Halen was it for me. And sadly, they’re no more. Lost their guitarist.

Kyle Knowles:
Eddie’s not with us anymore.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, well they lost Eddie and everything [inaudible 01:04:58]. Then I became a Mumford and Sons and then they broke up and I’m like, “God, what is there anymore?” I still like that style that Mumford and Sons or eighties Rock, I still listen to and love.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. Favorite cereal?

Kurt Black:
I’m probably a Cap’n Crunch guy, even though I don’t get it. It’s a rare day. It’s usually when I’m at a hotel. Oh, they have…

Kyle Knowles:
Makes you feel like a little kid again.

Kurt Black:
Exactly.

Kyle Knowles:
All right. Mac or PC?

Kurt Black:
A hundred percent PC. We have this battle. I think I’m the only one in the office on a PC, everyone else is Mac-

Kyle Knowles:
8th Grade English, for sure.

Kurt Black:
Yeah-

Kyle Knowles:
It’s amazing they let you be a partner. Bringing a PC into an agency.

Kurt Black:
I know. I said all of my work is on Excel, PowerPoint or Word. So why would I-

Kyle Knowles:
So it doesn’t matter.

Kurt Black:
… go to the Mac?

Kyle Knowles:
It doesn’t matter.

Kurt Black:
I know all the keystrokes for those programs. Why would I relearn that?

Kyle Knowles:
All right. Google, Gmail, and Workspace or Microsoft, Outlook, and Office.

Kurt Black:
I’ve got both. I use Outlook primarily, but I have the Gmail account for any personal kind of things, but everything else is Outlook.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Dogs or cats.

Kurt Black:
God, you might shoot me, but I’m a neither.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. That’s a first. That’s a first. It’s been dogs except I think one person said cat. So you are the first person on the podcast to say neither. Just no pets.

Kurt Black:
Everyone in my neighborhood knows that I’m the anti… And I don’t know if it’s because I got chased so much by dogs-

Kyle Knowles:
Running.

Kurt Black:
… running. And I then I see dog poo on the trail. I’m just like, “Why? Why would you have one of these?”

Kyle Knowles:
All right. Phantom or Le Mis?

Kurt Black:
Just saw Le Mis. That was actually my first Broadway play that I’ve been to. We went a week or so ago. Yeah, it was great. I loved the movie and I loved the book. I read the book and loved those. So yeah, the play was great as well.

Kyle Knowles:
It was awesome. It was really… We saw it Sunday.

Kurt Black:
Oh, did you?

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah.

Kurt Black:
Okay. So you were really- [inaudible 01:07:27]

Kyle Knowles:
Great cast.

Kurt Black:
… a day or two after us then.

Kyle Knowles:
A different stage they have for this production- [inaudible 01:07:33]

Kurt Black:
Yeah. That was the amazing part. When he falls into the abyss, just the way they did that was amazing.

Kyle Knowles:
The visual effects, really cool.

Kurt Black:
Exactly.

Kyle Knowles:
I love… I’m a Le Mis guy more than Phantom. I like them both. But Le Mis is, it’s the story and so forth.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, it’s an amazing story.

Kyle Knowles:
So where can people find you, Charcoal, and 8th Grade English?

Kurt Black:
So Charcoal, we’re at charcoaladata.com. We need to have more of a presence. In fact, we’re in the process of redoing our website. We’ve just been so busy with onboarding new clients and things like that. It’s like the cobbler’s kids have no shoes situation. So we’re redoing that, our website, but it’s charcoaldata.com. And then we’re 8-T-H-G-E for 8th Grade English. So 8thge.com.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. And then I’ll include links to all things Charcoal and 8th Grade English on the show notes on mmmpod.net. Kurt, is there a question that I haven’t asked you that I should be asking you?

Kurt Black:
Golly, you’ve done a really good job of tying my personal life to my professional life, to everything. Kudos to you to be able to tie that all together because I feel like my running life really influenced my business life for the most part. So you’ve done a great job of bridging that together. I mean, just a random question, I can’t think of anything that, “Ah, I wish he would’ve asked me that.”

Kyle Knowles:
Well, maybe you’ll think of it later, but thank you so much. It’s been so good to reconnect with you.

Kurt Black:
Likewise.

Kyle Knowles:
I think it’s been… I don’t know how long it’s been since I’ve seen you, but it’s maybe 15, 20 years, maybe more. So thank you for spending an hour with me on a Wednesday night and being so generous with your time. I’ve loved hearing about your entrepreneurial journey, and I hope this podcast inspires other entrepreneurs. Just as talking to you has inspired me, and that entrepreneurs will just keep going and those of us who are dreamers will just start. So thank you so much, Kurt, for being-

Kurt Black:
Fantastic. Thank you.

Kyle Knowles:
Awesome. What about the steeplechase? I didn’t ask you again, explain what the steeplechase is. This is like 3000 meters, 5,000 meters, whatever. I kind of understand that, but steeplechase, are there dogs involved? What is it- [inaudible 01:10:17]

Kurt Black:
That’s why I’m afraid of dogs-

Kyle Knowles:
… You’re jumping over the fences, right? You’re running in water. What is it?

Kurt Black:
It’s 3000 meters, so just short of two miles. And then you’ve got four barriers and a water jump every lap. So you have seven full laps of those. So you have 28 barriers total, plus seven water jumps in the race-

Kyle Knowles:
How do you scale? What do you mean barriers?

Kurt Black:
So the barrier is three feet high. The wood blocks on top are about that big. And if you hit one, you go down. So the only time I’ve hit a barrier was at the Olympic Trials and it’s like, “Oh, for the love… Why that race?” But I hit one and my knee was just ballooned up for three weeks afterwards. But the barriers, you hurdle them. So my coach always referred to it as he is like, “It’s not the 3000-meter steeplechase, it’s the 3000-meter distance hurdle.” We approached it that way. It was like, “You’ve got to be a good hurdler to do well at this event.” So as soon as cross country was over, we started doing hurdle drills all through indoor- [inaudible 01:11:30]

Kyle Knowles:
Just with rig. Is it the same height as a hurdle?

Kurt Black:
Yeah. So intermediate hurdles for college, it’s the same height as those. So that three feet high. And then the water jump is the same height, but then you’ve got that water pit right after. The goal is to get one foot in the water next foot out. So usually one, but have to tell you a funny story. So my first steeplechase ever freshman year, we go to California and everybody had told me, get your feet wet.

Kyle Knowles:
Before were you run?

Kurt Black:
Before you run. So there’s special steeplechase spike. So they’re sort of a mesh, it’s like a spike. It’s got the spike plate, but it’s got a mesh upper so it’ll drain quicker. So they said, “Get your feet wet.” But they forgot to tell me part B of that is after you get your feet wet, make sure you retie your shoes. I didn’t do the retie. I do my little sprints right before the race, make sure I’m totally warmed up as they call you to the line, you stand aback about three feet. And then they say, “Set.” And you jog up to the line and they shoot the gun.
Jog up, they shoot the gun. I push off with the one foot and my shoe goes flying back and I didn’t know… It’s my first race. I’m just like, just run. So I’d go and it was the foot that I would land on the water jump, top of the water jump. I’m landing on it barefoot and then my foot with the shoe lands in the water, and then I’m coming back out again. Well, I made it three water jumps and the water sucked that other shoe off. So I’m barefoot for a mile of that race and I finish and I’m like, “Ah, man.” During the race, I’m like, “God, it feels like there’s rocks on the track.” It was just my toes were blistering up on both feet. And then the rocks disappeared because they’d ripped my blisters off and I finished and my feet were just ripped to shreds.

Kyle Knowles:
Just bloody.

Kurt Black:
Yeah. So I basically crawl over to the medical tent. They wrapped me up and my coach comes over and he goes, “Why didn’t you fall down?” I’m like, “What do you mean? Why didn’t I fall down?” He’s like, “If you fall down when they shoot the gun, they’ll restart the race. You could have got your shoe.” Didn’t know that was an option. And then he goes, “Well, you ran the fastest debut steeplechase. Do you want to do another one day after tomorrow at Stanford?” I was like, “I guess so, let’s do this.” So I went in with bandaged feet and then did a second one.

Kyle Knowles:
How did you do the second time?

Kurt Black:
And then the second one, I almost broke the freshman record at that one and then eventually broke it. I was at Junior Nationals that year, broke the freshman record for Weber. And then it was at the Junior Nationals, the guy… There were two of us that were the favorite in the race. And I would usually take out the pace because I knew I didn’t have a lot of speed. So I’d try to make people hurt during the race and hopefully that would burn them… Either burn them off or take enough out of their kick that I’d have a shot at the end.
So right before the mile, he’s right on my back. All of a sudden we hurdle and I hear this and he went down the pack… By the time he was ready to get back up the pack had caught him and somebody put a spike in the top of his calf and just took it all the way down. He ended up finishing the race and I talked to him after and he just looked like he’d been in a war. I mean, just bloody, beat up. And funny part is he actually made the Olympic team in 92 or 96. So really good guy. We’ve stayed friends since then, but really good guy.

Kyle Knowles:
And did you ever make the Olympic team?

Kurt Black:
No. So the following year… So the 92, I hit the barrier at the Olympic Trials. The following year was the World Championships, which is in the track and field equivalent to Olympic team, and I was the alternate for that. So I went to Europe and raced and then came back and when I got back I got a call and they said, “Hey, are you ready to go? Because the guy that took third has been having injury problems, he may not go.” But I think he’d made every world championship team since they began in 83. And he decided I can’t break my streak. So he ended up going, but it was that close.

Kyle Knowles:
Wow.

Kurt Black:
It would’ve been amazing, but it was his race to give up. [inaudible 01:16:56]

Kyle Knowles:
Still, you were running at an elite level.

Kurt Black:
Yeah, that level. And it was heck of an experience. I had a blast. It was like, dream come true. That’s what I’d wanted all through college, but you do get… That was one area where I was like, I always thought, okay, if I can get sponsored by a shoe company or ranked, that became the end goal. And it wasn’t… Now that I look back, I’m like, man, I sort of sold myself short at that point because it was like, achieved it. Now what? And you lose a little motivation and things like that. Now that I look back, I’m like, if I would’ve looked like, okay, that’s a stepping stone to what’s next rather than that’s the end- [inaudible 01:17:53]

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah, that’s the end. [inaudible 01:17:55]

Kurt Black:
Yeah, exactly. It was fun. I had amazing experiences, traveled to places that I’d never… I raced in Japan twice and I probably wouldn’t go there just on my own, but it was, I got over there and thought, “God, this is just an amazing country.” I loved it, every part of it. Had met a lot of fantastic people I’ve stayed friends with. So it was great, great time. Had a sweet mullet, gold chain. Life was good.

Kyle Knowles:
If only I could grow even a rat tail at this point.

Kurt Black:
Hey, I’m with you.

Kyle Knowles:
Well, thanks again, Kurt. Thanks for coming down and spending time away from your family to be on the podcast.

Kurt Black:
Nom thank you. It was a lot of fun. It’s good to just reconnect.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah.