Sierra McCleve – food & beverage founder, investor, and startup consultant

Recorded in the Pink Conference Room at Kiln Park City

Sierra McCleve on Instagram

Thirst Drinks

Sierra’s Tiny House Rentals
Moon Lit
Boho
Copper Sunrise

Make A Dent Podcast on Instagram

Make A Dent Podcast on Apple Podcasts

Make A Dent Podcast on Spotify

Book Recommendations: The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don’t Work and What to Do About It by Michael E. Gerber, How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie, Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win and The Dichotomy of Leadership: Balancing the Challenges of Extreme Ownership to Lead and Win by Jocko Willink

This episode features Sierra McCleve, a seasoned entrepreneur with a background in the food industry. Sierra shares her journey, insights, and the lessons she’s learned from running her businesses.

Sierra’s entrepreneurial journey began with a lawn mowing business in her youth. She later transitioned into the corporate world, where she gained valuable experience but was dissatisfied with the culture. This dissatisfaction fueled her desire to create her own businesses, Dottie’s and Thirst, focusing on building a positive company culture.

One of the core values of her business is employee satisfaction, which she believes leads directly to customer satisfaction. She emphasizes the importance of teaching her team about the ‘why’ of the business and regularly communicating with them to ensure they understand what it takes to manage and own a business.

Sierra identifies as both a maker and a manager. She enjoys the creative process of producing and creating but also recognizes the importance of management skills in running a successful business. She believes that balancing both these skills is crucial for entrepreneurs.

One of the key lessons Sierra shares is the importance of not just chasing money. While financial success can be a motivator, she believes it’s not enough to sustain the grind of entrepreneurship. Instead, she suggests that entrepreneurs should have other underlying motivations, such as making a difference or creating a positive company culture.

Sierra also shares her approach to dealing with employees who may be having a bad day. She encourages checking in on them and doing something to help make their day a little bit better. This approach is part of her ‘leave them better’ philosophy, which applies to her team and customers.

Sierra is currently working towards starting another business. Despite the challenges of entrepreneurship, she remains driven by her desire to make a difference, particularly within her family, and hopefully extend beyond that. Her story offers valuable insights for current and aspiring entrepreneurs, particularly those in the food industry.

Kyle Knowles:
Hello, there. Welcome to the Maker Manager Money Podcast, a podcast about entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, founders, business owners, and business partnerships from startups to stayups, to inspire entrepreneurs to keep going, and future entrepreneurs to just start. Really, it’s a celebration of makers and managers out there making money. My name is Kyle Knowles and I’m trying to make some cool content at Kiln, that’s K-I-L-N as in nice. Today’s the first time recording at Kiln Park City. It’s a Sunday morning, and Kiln is turning out to be my second place.
For some, it’s church or pubs or gyms, but for me it’s Kiln. As they say on their website, Kiln provides working communities that are handcrafted and programmed to elevate lifestyle and performance. Today’s guest is Sierra McCleve, an entrepreneur and two times business founder who launched and ran Dottie’s Kolaches in Heber City, Utah for nearly a decade. Co-founded Thirst Drinks with Utah locations in St. George, Tooele, West Jordan, Bountiful, Millcreek, Downtown Salt Lake City, and you can also find Thirst at the Delta Center.
She is now doing startup consulting and investing in tiny house, rentals in Tennessee and Zion National Park, and as a fellow podcast producer hosting the Make A Dent podcast. Sierra earned a business administration degree from the former Dixie State University now Utah Tech University, and won awards as a sales leader in the corporate world before becoming an entrepreneur. Welcome to the show, Sierra.

Sierra McCleve:
Kyle, thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. It’s an honor. Super pumped.

Kyle Knowles:
So nice to meet you today and thank you for coming to Kiln in Park City. I wanted to start with three questions I haven’t really used before on the podcast.

Sierra McCleve:
Okay. Awesome.

Kyle Knowles:
I’ve been thinking about these for myself, my personal life, but they are simply, “Who are you? Why are you here, and what do you want?”

Sierra McCleve:
Okay. You might have to remind me the order… Or the-

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Who are you? Let’s start with that.

Sierra McCleve:
Okay. Who am I? Wow. We could go so deep with this. I love that question.

Kyle Knowles:
It could be philosophical, it could be literal.

Sierra McCleve:
It could be, right? Wow. It’s got deep quick. I love it. Well, my name is Sierra McCleve, as you said. I wear many hats and it’s been uncomfortable for me to try to narrow one down. So I’m a mom, a wife. Definitely entrepreneur, serial entrepreneur as some would say. I’ve had to kind of intentionally chill out and not start a business recently. I’m taking my time on this next one and really just loving the process of figuring out really who I am and what’s important to me, core values, and taking all the information and just trying to live my best life with no regrets.

Kyle Knowles:
I love it. So would you be willing to share your three core values that I assume that you might have figured out for yourself from Lyn Christian?

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah. Shout out Lyn. Shout out Lyn in SoulSalt.

Kyle Knowles:
Badass. Yep.

Sierra McCleve:
Oh, true badass. I have, let’s see, core values. Give me a second to get there. Definitely something in the form of making memories no regrets which I actually got from Friday Night Lights. Did you ever watch that series?

Kyle Knowles:
Oh, yeah.

Sierra McCleve:
Love it. But that encompasses a lot, I think a lot about when I’m 80 and not having regrets. So that guides that helps make a lot of decisions actually. So no regrets. Leaving people better, leaving them better. I’ve used that core value at both of my businesses too, and that’s something that’s just true for me. It makes you a better human, it gives a better experience to everyone when you try to leave people better than you found them. So that’s one.
Let’s see. What would be my third one? My third one would… I’m trying to think what Lyn would tell me. Harness my Lyn. What would Lyn say? Probably to live. I’m focusing right now on really living in my true strengths and not my pseudo strengths, which Lyn discusses in their book and in their coaching. Have you worked with Lyn yet?

Kyle Knowles:
I’ve just worked with their book.

Sierra McCleve:
Okay. And Lyn was on your podcast, which was an incredible episode. Holy smokes. But a lot of times, looking back, I’ve realized I’ve been working in a lot of my pseudo strengths, which led to burnout because you can be good at something. What I’ve learned from Lyn is you can be good at something, but it doesn’t mean that you should do it all the time because you can be good at a lot of things, but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make it a business necessarily. It doesn’t mean you should do it all the time. It means sometimes you might need to outsource that so you can live in your true strength that will empower you and charge you up instead of drain you. So I’m really focusing on that right now.

Kyle Knowles:
I love that. I love that. Yeah, that’s a great answer of who are you?

Sierra McCleve:
Thank you.

Kyle Knowles:
So why are you here? I think maybe some of the stuff that you just talked about encompass that, but maybe there’s a little more about why are you here? And it could be on this podcast or here on Earth or whatever. You could take it any direction you’d want.

Sierra McCleve:
Why am I here? Well, I’m super stoked to be on the podcast and we got connected by Lyn and just an honor to be speaking with on a platform where fellow entrepreneurs, business owners, aspiring, can live and breathe and build a community. I think it’s so exciting what you’re doing, Kyle, really. And having a place for that, because that can be a lonely road, entrepreneurship. So any support and love we can get there is awesome. So I was excited to be here, and I’m still diving into the bigger why.
I think I know that I’m a builder, a producer, a creator, and you graciously mentioned my podcast, Make A Dent. But that’s another one of my core values, I think you could say is really how to make a dent in the universe and how to show other people that they can too. It’s one of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes. You can YouTube search it, Steve Jobs make a dent and he’s talking about just when you realize you can… The way he phrases it, you can poke at the universe and something happens on the other side, you can impact.
So basically what he’s talking about. So I’m still diving into that and that’s why I have a personal and business coach and trying to align that with as many of the decisions as I can make in my future as possible with what that purpose is and to really to fulfill it and to be fulfilled by it.

Kyle Knowles:
I love it. I think we’re on similar paths in some ways that way, although you’ve been an entrepreneur and I’ve been in the corporate world for all these years, but I believe… One of the questions I was going to get to, and I may as we may as well talk about it now because I already know the answer, and that means, this is a rhetorical question, but are you more of a maker or a manager?

Sierra McCleve:
Maker.

Kyle Knowles:
Yes, for sure. And let me just paint the scene here at Kiln Park City because Sierra came in with a backpack and there’s a gorilla tripod sticking out of it. She’s got a light, she’s got her laptop, she’s got all kinds of gear in here, like content making gear. And so it was very easy to identify you as, “Oh, here’s a fellow maker.”

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah. I identify with that role a lot. I think there’s such value in the manager role, and that is something that I like to still really practice. I think I can get better at that, but have you had a chance to read E-Myth Revisited yet?

Kyle Knowles:
Not yet, but it was recommended by Lyn.

Sierra McCleve:
One of my favorite books. It is a book that is very tactical, but they talk about three things. So you’re entrepreneur, you’re visionary, you’re manager, and then your boots on the ground person. And in my businesses, I’ve realized I really thrive well in the visionary, the maker, the producer, the creator, and the employee level. Boots on the ground doing the tactical work and the manager is where I have opportunities. I can do it, but I can do it for a very short period of time, get some systems in place and then go. And all of them are important, but I definitely thrive in the maker, producer, creator, visionary type world.

Kyle Knowles:
What I’ve seen with some of the guests too, and especially at who comes to mind, is Terry Allen who founded Alinco Costumes years ago and recently retired and handed off to his kids. But he was this artist maker sculptor, and he invented a new way to do mascot heads, sculpting them and things like that. He was this artist, but as he grew his business, in order to scale, he had to transition to manager. And I, can you talk just a little bit about that transition as you scaled either at Dottie’s or at Thirst, and what did you do? Did you get someone else to be the manager? Did you do the management? How did you get up to speed and what was that transition like?

Sierra McCleve:
That was a great question because I think a lot of people under prepare for that transition and then they get stuck doing all their roles and get burnt out, and then they stop. And that’s why most businesses don’t make it past two years, right? Five years. So the approach that I did at Dottie’s and at Thirst is initially I started the business creating an org chart on how I wanted the business to look in five years. You could do it five years or 10 years. Some people think that’s so silly because your name is literally going to be in every box, CEO, marketer, whatever, ops manager. General manager, whatever.
But it helps you create a vision for that and then it’ll show you then how you’re going to need to backfill that position. And so for both of those businesses, yes, I’ve worked all the positions and then started to backfill. At Thirst, I have a business partner there, Ethan, and he did the same thing. I guided him that way. So we started learning everything, boots on the ground, everything at the register, drive-through level. And then once we got that developing systems, checklists, oh my gosh, checklist systems and then position agreements so that when you need to graduate to that next level, when you need to graduate to ops manager and then backfill your assistant manager position, you have the position agreement, you have checklists, and then you just keep going.
It’s sounds easy and it actually kind of is if you do it, but if you get behind on that, that can be really challenging. But E-Myth Revisited talks about all of that.

Kyle Knowles:
How to do that, how to transition.

Sierra McCleve:
How to do it. That’s why I love that book. It’s like tactical. You can go do it the next day. It’s not just theory, which those theory books are great too, but that’s where a lot of that comes from. But it can be hard and it can be hard to let go. It can be hard for people who are makers, artists to move into that manager role for even a temporary time. That can be really hard. But if you can recruit someone to yin and yang to balance you out, that can be really powerful too. And then it can be more joyful I think, as well. So you got to learn a lot of self… What’s the word I’m thinking of? Just like self-awareness, learn a lot of self-awareness.

Kyle Knowles:
So you can recognize maybe some of those unconscious incompetencies.

Sierra McCleve:
Oh, yeah. Oh man, that’s-

Kyle Knowles:
Early on.

Sierra McCleve:
And that’s something you’ll have a magnifying glass on all those things as an entrepreneur and a business owner starter is just all your strengths, which feel great, and all your weaknesses are just under the magnifying glass, which can be great. It can be turned into either a competency at least, if not a strength. But yeah, it’s all under a magnifying glass.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Yeah. I love discussing this whole maker manager thing, and it really comes from a VC. Paul Graham, who wrote a blog post years and years ago because he was a programmer, but he founded some companies and got a lot of money and became a VC. So he wrote this blog post simply to explain that makers have a different schedule than managers. Managers are used to every 30 minutes, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, filling up their schedule and they want to bring those makers in into it, but makers need these large blocks of time to get their stuff done. And that’s what they like to do those large blocks of time.
So as a manager, understanding the maker is what he was basically kind of… And that’s where the name of the podcast derived from. But this whole idea, if you’re a dual threat like you are, I can tell you’re a maker, but you can get the management stuff done and then get someone in place, that dual threat combination for an entrepreneur is money, equals money because you can be a maker and never make any money because you don’t know how to manage the business. Right?
Or you can be a manager and not have any innovative ideas or anything to make. And so you don’t make any money. So you need, like you said that yin and yang. Sometimes it’s in you and sometimes you need to find someone to come be that maker, come be that manager.

Sierra McCleve:
A hundred percent if you can. And if you have that awareness… And you have conversations like that on how you both work, theoretically or one-on-one. If you can have those conversations early and regularly and adapt and work on your communication skills, man, it makes a big difference other than just assuming. A lot of people will assume early on. I did the same thing too, assuming that my team understood what it took to be managing the business, to be owning the business and being the visionary, and they had no idea, and how could they? It is my job to educate them and then also ask questions like, “How’s it for you?” I haven’t ran the window in months. Tell me what you’re hearing. So learning to have those conversations and not assume is huge. And if you can find that balance, like you said, “Man, you can just really fuel the fire.”

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah. Tell me how do you basically deliver that vision to your employees as an owner, founder?

Sierra McCleve:
Good question. One of my biggest drivers for going into business that fueled my fire early was company culture. Spending a lot of time in the corporate world that I wasn’t a huge fan of the culture, I got really frustrated. I was super blessed. I learned a lot about sales and stuff, but that’s what really fueled my fire. So both of my businesses, Dottie’s and Thirst, one of our core values was employee satisfaction. That would lead directly to customer satisfaction. So the way that you do that, in my mind, the way that I’ve done it is from the beginning, you have to have your core values that you’re teaching your team and teaching them about the why of the business.
Like you asked me in the beginning, what’s your why? We would talk about our why on onboarding. And even in interviews because you want to weed those people out who may not even catch it early. So you want to talk about it early. This is why we’re doing this. And we believe it’s more than just serving kolaches and drinks at a window or serving cookies and drinks at a window. It’s about the customer experience and about how we can change one person’s day, honestly, with a smile and their favorite drink made to perfection.
It might sound silly, but I’ve seen it happen. I’ve had people come through the drive-thru and be like, “I have to tell you, this is the worst week of my life. And this little thing made it better, made it easier.” From a baked good and a coconut diet Coke. So I explain it is your job as a manager in my mind and as an owner to get your team onboard with that early. And you can’t force them to do that.
You have to show them, you have to create the core values. You have to live it and breathe it with all your actions within. You have to talk about it regularly. You have to show them regularly. Your managers have to show them regularly. And that can be a challenge. You have to dedicate a lot of time and intention to that. But the places I’ve seen do that, you can tell a difference. You can feel the difference when you walk into those places that have been able to do that with their team. The interactions are different. And you can tell when it’s not.

Kyle Knowles:
Oh yeah. I’ve talked about this with my family is like when we go eat at a restaurant or something and then you’re like, “This was made with love.” Especially if you’re dealing with franchises, you can tell sometimes that some franchise have that. So this visionary, someone explaining the core values and the way the food is even served, the way it looks and the way it tastes, it’s like, “Wow, this was made with love.” And then you go to other places and you’re like, “This was not made with love. Someone does not like their job.” Right?

Sierra McCleve:
I love it. I started to be able to pick up on that when I was about to lose a baker. I could tell by the way their product was coming out, if I had coached them, if I had taken the time to been like, “Wait, help me understand what’s going on.” And their product is still not coming out, there’s no love. They’re halfway out the door, even with 75% out the door already. And you can tell, and the customers can tell too. In food, it’s important and there’s a visual representation.
I think in not food, you would judge that by the quality of the work, the customer ratings, still the customer experience, the employee ratings, employee satisfaction, so important. And you can tell the places that are built on love and when people care.

Kyle Knowles:
And so you knew a baker was on their way out because the quality was, I don’t know, suffered basically.

Sierra McCleve:
Oh yeah. Yep. I’ve had some conversations with some too that were like, “This wasn’t made with love. Help me understand what’s going on.” Something is going on.

Kyle Knowles:
It could be just their personal life, something’s going on. They’re going through a divorce, whatever.

Sierra McCleve:
And you have to learn too when to have that conversation and when to just let it go because it could be one day and you want to watch it and you want to check in, make sure everything’s okay, because after one day it can slip like dominoes. You don’t want to let it go too far. But that’s kind of one of the key, I think artistry in managing is when to know when to come in heavy like, “Hey, what’s going on? We need to fix this right away. This is unacceptable. Or Hey, what’s going on? What can I do to help? Let’s do some coaching. Or is it just an off day and still, what can we do to help?”
That’s one thing we talked about at both places early is leave them better was a core value of theirs and Dottie’s. It was one of the conversations we would have, it would say, if you notice one of your team members is off, check in on them. If they don’t want to talk about it, that’s okay. But check in on them. And if they’re having a rough day, which we all do, and they couldn’t just leave it at the door, which we try to suggest is try to come here and let’s make this a good fun place to run away from your problems for a minute or be alleviated for a minute.
If they couldn’t do that, do their dishes. Do something to help make their day a little bit better. And then I believe that will translate to the customer experience as well.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. I like that. Leave them better.

Sierra McCleve:
Leave them better.

Kyle Knowles:
So it’s the customer you’re specifically talking, not leave the food better, but leave them better off for having come in and bought something from you basically.

Sierra McCleve:
Yes. First, I believe it started with our employees. I always tried to hound that at Dottie’s and Thirsts early on. I was more involved with the Thirst stuff hands on early on. But leave your team better first. Leave them better than you found them and then the customer leave them better than you found them.

Kyle Knowles:
And that would translate to employees helping each other as well.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah, absolutely.

Kyle Knowles:
Leaving each other like that.

Sierra McCleve:
Caring for your team. And it’s interesting, I’m really big on vocabulary. So from the beginning too, I encouraged our managers and the fellow employees to use the word team instead of employees.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice.

Sierra McCleve:
Because it creates a whole other vibe?

Kyle Knowles:
It does. Words matter.

Sierra McCleve:
Man, I’m not going to leave my team hanging if I know that their dog just died and that was their best friend. And they still have two hours of dishes, I’m going to help. I think that that really, really makes a difference in the whole environment. That can lead to retention numbers too.

Kyle Knowles:
For sure.

Sierra McCleve:
And all that. But everyone wants a place to feel like home, away from home like Kiln. Right?

Kyle Knowles:
Like Kiln, yes.

Sierra McCleve:
Like Kiln.

Kyle Knowles:
Shout-out to Kiln.

Sierra McCleve:
Where you’re spending a lot of your time, you want that place to feel like home and that’s important to me with my businesses.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Go ahead and take a drink. I know you were reaching for it.

Sierra McCleve:
No problem.

Kyle Knowles:
Give a little total [inaudible 00:20:43] I’m going to take some.

Sierra McCleve:
ASMR.

Kyle Knowles:
I love it.

Sierra McCleve:
Maybe that could be a side revenue stream ASMR on the Maker Manager Money Podcast.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. And you talked about this when you talking about who are you and why are you here, but what do you want? Just hone in on that just for a little bit more.

Sierra McCleve:
I think I want to make a difference, and I mean at the most important level with my kids, my family. That was the most important thing to me. But I would like that to outreach a little wider too. So that’s one of the first things that come to mind. You said why am I here?

Kyle Knowles:
What do you want?

Sierra McCleve:
What do I want? My ADHD went that way.

Kyle Knowles:
That’s okay.

Sierra McCleve:
What do I want?

Kyle Knowles:
It sounds like you’re going to start another business. So you’re working towards that.

Sierra McCleve:
Definitely to continue making and producing and taking all the lessons I’ve learned to really continue to make an impact and make a bigger dent, I guess with the next one. But I’m really being intentional. It’s very uncomfortable for me, Kyle, to not be businessing right now like full entrepreneur that has been white-knuckling it for almost a year now. But it’s been really good for me to chill out and just be really intentional with what I want to do next because it’s so easy for me to get excited. And I have so many ideas, but I want to be really smart with them. My kids are young, so I want to make sure there’s that balance of I can be at home. I don’t want to get sucked in.
It’s very easy for me to get very excited and then… I mean, as you know if you’ve talked to so many people and seen, it’s not something a lot of times you can do part-time unless you’re intentional. It becomes one of your kids. It becomes your other relationship. And so I’m just really wanting to choose the right thing so that my energy can be dedicated in the right places and then make a big freaking splash, a big dent.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. Awesome. So I want to just ask you about, was your mom or dad an entrepreneur, someone in the family? Does it run in your family?

Sierra McCleve:
Good question. I actually was prepping for this by listening to some of your episodes this morning, and I’ve listened to a few over the last several weeks and you’re doing such a great job. So I knew this question was coming, but this morning was the first time it really hit me that yes. And I’ve always answered that question. Yes, my dad had his own welding business growing up. And as I was thinking about it though this morning, because you had asked another guest, I was like, that really probably was the seed. Hearing that growing up, my dad owns his own welding, and saying that, and hearing just a little bit about it probably made it less foreign and less scary for me to dive in because a lot of people are really nervous about it like really risk… What’s the word? Averse?

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah.

Sierra McCleve:
Risk averse. And I haven’t really been, so yeah, I think so. My mom did later too. My mom runs an antique and vintage market thing and she’s done exceptionally good at that. That’s been later, but early on, yeah, my dad did. I do remember being very entrepreneurial, but early on, I think it was about the money. I think I told you this in one of our early just phone call conversations.

Kyle Knowles:
Conversations, yeah.

Sierra McCleve:
It was like, we grew up not having a lot, but my parents worked really super hard for what we had, and I’m so grateful. So I think early on it was like, I just need to solve a problem and then just make some money. So what problem could I solve? And now though, having had the 10 years of experience behind it, it’s more about producing and creating. I’m so glad that switched because just from what I’ve seen and heard, when you’re just chasing that money, life can become pretty miserable. If that’s the only thing you’re focused on. It could be different for other people.

Kyle Knowles:
It’s interesting the different motives of entrepreneurs too because some want maybe more balanced, some want to build that culture like you talked about leave corporate because maybe you didn’t like the culture there and wanted establish your own. It’s interesting because Jason Steed, I don’t know if you listened to that podcast yet, but he outlined three motivations. One of them was to get rich. He said he’s still working on that one.
I think if that’s the primary driver, what I’m hearing from entrepreneurs is don’t go into business for yourself then. Because there’s a grind and that’s not enough to get you over the hump of not making any money and taking the risk of running your own business.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah. I really don’t think it’s enough to get you over that. I think it can drive you for a little while, but there has to be something else. I think as people look back on it and then have some more realizations, they’re like, “Oh, this is maybe what the other underlying thing was.” I’m glad I realized that because you just wouldn’t do what you have to do, especially… My experience in food, so that’s what I can speak to the most. But in food, the margins are so slim. And so it can be tough and it’s just not enough to drive you.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Well, talk a little bit about… I don’t know if lawn mowing was what you were thinking of as your initial foray into entrepreneurship, but talk about life before going into business for yourself.

Sierra McCleve:
Okay.

Kyle Knowles:
And what that was growing up, and then going to school and going into the corporate world.

Sierra McCleve:
Okay, sure. So definitely lawn mowing was my first entrepreneurial thing. I got maybe one customer, but I had this really dope poster. I made in clip art.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice.

Sierra McCleve:
Oh man, it was sick. Then I used card stock for my little cards, and I maybe got one. It was probably my mom was my only client, but I always had that mindset. And then in high school, same thing. Just always working. I started working at 15 and blessed my mom’s heart, she would drive me until I got my license out to this little sandwich shop. So I wasn’t afraid of working and I did want that money to have some stuff to go spend it on. I think any kid wants that. But in high school, I remember these kids were into AV. They were into video and they would video… I knew they were videoing the football games maybe for the coaches to review.
And I thought, “Oh, that’s cool.” I want to learn iMovie. Then I realized I didn’t really want to move learn iMovie. They were already good at it, but I was like, “For these last couple games of their senior year, why don’t we sell the tape to the parents? You’re already videoing it.” So I talked to them who were already doing the video, and I got permission from, I don’t know who. I think I got permission, I don’t know. And then at the homecoming game, I set up a little table and just offered to sell a copy of the DVD to parents.
They paid me then and then I had to go figure out how to make the video and pull it. The production was probably absolutely horrible because it was one camera up way high. There wasn’t multiple cameras. But that was another endeavor where I was just like, “How can I put some people together and make some money and figure this out?” [inaudible 00:28:18]

Kyle Knowles:
Did you just put all the games for the whole year on one DVD or what?

Sierra McCleve:
I think I just did it for the homecoming game.

Kyle Knowles:
Just one game? Oh, wow.

Sierra McCleve:
And then it was probably really hard, and I don’t think I ever dabbled in that again, but I was definitely always kind of thinking about stuff like that. And then I got a really good job when I was in high school still? No, I got a really good job when I was in college. That was sales. So that was my first intro into corporate world, and I was making good money part-time, and that led me to be able to buy a condo with some help of some family.
In the back of my mind, I was like, “I mean, this condo is for sale right next to my mom’s. If I got roommates, I wonder if I could make this happen.” And so at 19, I bought this condo and rented out the rooms and made more than the mortgage.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice.

Sierra McCleve:
So that was cool. I learned a lot there. Anyway, continued to have this great sales job, learned a lot of sales skills, but really got tired of the culture and knew that I wanted to do something different. Always knew growing up I wanted to own a business, not a bakery. That never came up, but that was my first one. And people always ask like, “Oh, you wanted to be a baker?” No, but I always wanted to own a business. So just after finally getting really sick and tired of the culture there, but I had a little bit of money. Do you want me to dive into how I started my first goal?

Kyle Knowles:
Let’s dive into it. Because what’s funny… And I just want to just throw this out there because I just finished reading this book called What They Don’t Teach You in Harvard Business School. His last chapter is on entrepreneurship. And he says that 99% of people should work for someone else is a very rough grind. But one of the things he literally calls out is people that want to say go into business for themselves. So the first thing they think of because they like food or because they like restaurants, it’s to do a restaurant or some kind of food thing. And he’s like, this is a bad idea.

Sierra McCleve:
Mistake.

Kyle Knowles:
But you actually made it happen. So go right into Dottie’s.

Sierra McCleve:
I did. But the difference is I never wanted to be a baker. I think that’s what the point of that was, is if I had… I play guitar too, and I did think about taking a career as a studio musician. So I studied art all before I switched over to business. I was going to be a studio musician or a producer.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice.

Sierra McCleve:
So I was following that thing of my interest, then going to lead to something to make a career out of. And luckily as my second or third year into the art program, I was like, “I don’t want to do this forever. I want to play guitar for fun.” I had some other scholarships for some other instruments that I never wanted to play again. Really?

Kyle Knowles:
What instruments? Just interested.

Sierra McCleve:
This is so weird, Kyle. I randomly got a scholarship for bassoon, but I had never played bassoon.

Kyle Knowles:
How do you get a scholarship for bassoon never playing?

Sierra McCleve:
You play saxophone first and then you get looked at by a college that really needs a bassoon player.

Kyle Knowles:
It’s an easy transition for a saxophone player?

Sierra McCleve:
Actually, it’s not too easy, but I did start a little bit in high school because we needed one on a song. So getting used to the double read and then the fact that I could play really, they needed a bassoon way bad. I’m grateful for that. I’m so grateful for that. And actually I would play the bassoon again because it actually sounds really dope when you can play it.

Kyle Knowles:
You literally went to college on a scholarship to play bassoon.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah. Isn’t that so weird?

Kyle Knowles:
So cool.

Sierra McCleve:
Not many people know that. So I’m in there, I go for a few years and then I realize, “No, I don’t want to go play bassoon every day.” I have much more appreciation now. But I want to play guitar for fun. I was really always thinking about business ideas. And I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to take some business classes and I was like hooked.” It was like I couldn’t get enough. And then school was fun. Then especially at my latter year.

Kyle Knowles:
Junior and senior, whatever.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah, where I could really dive into some stuff I wanted to and I had really great, really great professors down. It was Dixie State at the time. It’s Utah Tech now. Anyway, so I think the difference there is, even though I started with a bakery is I never wanted to be a baker. And that gave me this other perspective, this ownership business perspective that helps a lot of people who grow up baking and want to bake and then become bakers, I think have a challenge with that.
It’s no longer fun because you have to move into that manager role, then you’re not baking anymore. And pretty soon you hate it. And that’s unfortunate. That’s really, really hard. It might not happen with everyone.

Kyle Knowles:
Unless you’re Tammy Siegel.

Sierra McCleve:
Oh, unless you’re Tammy Siegel, for sure.

Kyle Knowles:
But she wasn’t literally a baker before she started.

Sierra McCleve:
She was an architect. She was…

Kyle Knowles:
Right. But she liked baking.

Sierra McCleve:
She did. She was good.

Kyle Knowles:
Just on the side, but she turned… That’s rare. That’s a phenomenon.

Sierra McCleve:
But she has that mindset of design and architecture building. And so I think that’s where that comes into play for her. She’s one of my top five favorite people of all time, Kyle. I love Tammy so much, and there’s so much to be learned from her. So anyone, check her out, RubySnap cookies in Salt Lake City.

Kyle Knowles:
And Bite Me Industries

Sierra McCleve:
And Bite Me Industries on Instagram. An incredible maker. Oh my gosh. So then… Oh, I forgot where I was.

Kyle Knowles:
Sorry. You didn’t want to be a baker, but you ended up being a baker, I guess.

Sierra McCleve:
So I was down south. I was working splits at the job I didn’t like, but I was making good money. I mean, they taught me a lot. It was great learning experience.

Kyle Knowles:
And this was sales?

Sierra McCleve:
It was sales. I was working split. So I was driving four times a day past a drink company that started in St. George called Swig. I watched them go from no cars for four years to 20 cars in about a year because of these mommy bloggers that started blogging about Swig. And I was like, what in the crap is happening? Because I saw the line literally zero to 20. So that’s when I decided I was originally just going to do a drink shop. It wasn’t going to be a bakery. I was going to do a drink shop. I counted cars.
I just went and listened to figure out average revenue per order. I tried to figure out how much the cups were. So I reversed engineered and tried to figure out what their costs were, probably what their profit margin was. And I was like, “I think I can do this. I think I can do this.” So originally I was going to do a drink shop. And the drink shop, the place I was looking to place this drink shop up in a small town in northern Utah was serving kolaches at the time. It’s a Czech pastry. I’d never heard of them and I ate one.
My first one was a Turkey pepper jack and I went back to St. George and I couldn’t stop thinking about it. I thought he put something illegal or very special in the dough because I couldn’t stop thinking about it. And it ended up being an opportunity where I could buy the recipe and the equipment with the building to start my drink shop. And that was going to be my differentiator because at the time, this was 10 years ago, the only thing soda shops were producing, other than their drinks were cookies, were sugar cookie.
And for those listening who aren’t in Utah, there’s a craze with soda shops. It’s soda with coconut and pomegranate, and it’s flavored soda and cream, and it is actually really delicious, but it is huge here. It’s not many other places. But at the time, they were only serving a cookie. So I thought this was a handheld fresh. It could be breakfast or lunch. You need a napkin. It’s enclosed. It looks like a dinner roll, but there’s all this goodness inside. So it was going to be a drink shop with kolaches. And then we just started rolling October of 2013.

Kyle Knowles:
So as you went on, did drink supersede kolaches or was it revenue wise? Was it 50-50 or how does that work?

Sierra McCleve:
Good question.

Kyle Knowles:
Because kolache is more than a drink?

Sierra McCleve:
Yes.

Kyle Knowles:
Cost more. Were you 50-50 on that or what was it?

Sierra McCleve:
I pushed the drinks. We should float in my very first menu. It was a mess.

Kyle Knowles:
Oh, that’d be awesome.

Sierra McCleve:
It’s an example of what not to do. But we had shaved ice on there.

Kyle Knowles:
Oh, wow.

Sierra McCleve:
Kolache, soda mixers. It was this huge menu. Don’t do that. Anyone listening, narrow, find your niche, find your thing and just go… Think about in and out. Think about it like that. But we had all of that in there, and I was pushing the sodas, and I realized after about probably two years that the kolaches were the more exciting niche thing. We were the only kolache shop in Utah for a period of time. There’s more now. But people in Texas know about them because there’s a large Czech community in Texas and people in some parts of the Midwest like some Bohemian communities and Czech communities there know about them, but no one in Utah did. So we had to educate. And once people knew about them, they lost it.
So I stopped marketing sodas, but I still offered them. So the kolaches took over. We were selling them by the… We’d sold them in a meal of two or by the half dozen or dozen. And in Texas, that’s what you get. They’re in all the gas stations and you go and buy a dozen like donuts, basically.

Kyle Knowles:
Just anywhere in Texas, or certain parts of Texas?

Sierra McCleve:
You can see them a lot in Houston for sure. Kind of down that way. And then West Texas is probably the most famous place in Texas. There’s a place called the Czech Stop. So anyone there, you have to stop there. They’re so good. It’s like a 24-hour kolache production facility. And they’re always fresh. A traditional kolache or kolach depending on where you’re from, it’s a slightly sweet dough with a… Just to give your audience an idea, slightly sweet dough, almost looks like a Danish, but it’s way better. You push down the middle and there’s fresh fruit, raspberry or raspberry cream cheese, blue blueberry, and that’s an actual traditional kolache. The version that we added was kind of a Texas version where we-

Kyle Knowles:
Like savory?

Sierra McCleve:
Yep. Savory. We flattened out the dough, put sausage, egg cheese, cream cheese, bacon, jalapeno, barbecue, pulled pork, close it up like a dinner roll. It’s a very special dough. And then you bake it up and it’s poofy and delicious and handheld. So that’s the savory version. It’s technically called klobásníky or klobásník. But people just call them kolache down there. But to any Czech people listening, I’m sorry. Those are the correct terms.

Kyle Knowles:
So kolache was usually just a sweet version.

Sierra McCleve:
Yes.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. And they have a different name for the savory?

Sierra McCleve:
Yes.

Kyle Knowles:
And they flatten it out more than. It’s less puffy.

Sierra McCleve:
In Texas, the Americanized version is, it’s really a soft dinner roll. If you make them well, you have a layer of dough on top, layer of dough on bottom, and then all those meats and cheeses inside. And it’s really soft and fluffy. Not everyone makes them like that, but that’s how they, in my mind, should be. But I am biased. So I stopped focusing on the drinks for a long period of time at Dotties, but I still had the scratch ditch.
I really still wanted to go win the soda game because I learned so much. I knew how to do it. And that’s how Thirst was born out of wanting to still go compete in that arena. That started to get very competitive pretty darn quick. And right now you can go to any city in Utah and find probably at least two soda shops.

Kyle Knowles:
For sure.

Sierra McCleve:
But at the time it was a little bit… There were less.

Kyle Knowles:
I just want to take a tangent here for a second. Can you explain to the audience, especially if they’re outside of Utah, why a soda shop basically, right? Specialty soda drinks are good. Why is that so big in Utah?

Sierra McCleve:
Okay. So this is my theory on why it’s so big in Utah. Diet Coke is huge here. We are very, very much a family state. I think you could safely say within reason. Families are big here, therefore there’s lots of moms loving their diet Coke and dads. But it’s also quite religious. This is my theory on it. A lot of people here who are of a certain religion don’t drink a lot of alcohol or coffee, but they do drink soda.
I really think it became this culture’s coffee shop. It was their fix to get their caffeine and their sweet treat. It is really delicious. If it sounds really weird to a lot of people outside of Utah, but if you like soda, you would like these drinks. So I think that’s why it popped off. You’ll see the demographic of where a lot of people of this particular religion are… There’s density in population and soda shops work.

Kyle Knowles:
I don’t why you’re being evasive about the religion, but we’ll just throw it out.

Sierra McCleve:
You could say it.

Kyle Knowles:
It’s Mormons. What’s funny is, I had a boss several years ago that told me one time, he said, “You know how you could tell a difference between a Mormon and a non-Mormon in Utah? The temperature of their caffeine?”

Sierra McCleve:
Yes, there you go. See, that sums it up.

Kyle Knowles:
That stuck with me forever and that kind of sums Coke and Diet Coke.

Sierra McCleve:
I’m now going to steal that as the explanation. That’s perfect.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah, that’s perfect.

Kyle Knowles:
So it’s kind of like for members of The Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints, it’s kind of their bar-

Sierra McCleve:
It is.

Kyle Knowles:
… where to go to get a yummy drink.

Sierra McCleve:
Yep. And it works really well. I do think that it will still work with people that drink a lot of soda. So I’ve been so intrigued. I would love to have put one in Austin because Dr. Peppers really huge down in Texas and still… So are Bucky’s. Are you familiar with Bucky’s?

Kyle Knowles:
No.

Sierra McCleve:
It’s like the most incredible gas station you’ll ever go to, Kyle.

Kyle Knowles:
Oh, I have to go to one.

Sierra McCleve:
It’s like an experience. It’s like Disneyland for gas stations. And a lot of people are going to Bucky’s to get their drink anyway. So I think it could work there. So that’s a pro tip for anyone who is in the soda shop game. I’d look at Austin. Look at Austin.

Kyle Knowles:
Expanding franchise down in Austin.

Sierra McCleve:
I think it’d be interesting to see what happens. And Austin is weird too, so you could go do a little funky. You could go funky with it and bring more people in, I think. But anywhere soda works, I think that you would have to be very strategic on your marketing. Whereas in Utah or places where there are a lot of Mormon population, then you don’t have to do as much because people get it and they love it.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah. Okay. So back to Dottie’s Kolaches. First of all, one question I have for you. So you were trained on how to make them. So this business existed, at least the kolache.

Sierra McCleve:
The kolache place existed, yes.

Kyle Knowles:
Existed. It was not called Dottie’s.

Sierra McCleve:
No.

Kyle Knowles:
You came in, basically took over the business, added drinks, right?

Sierra McCleve:
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Knowles:
And maybe started expanding the caches.

Sierra McCleve:
I did.

Kyle Knowles:
And then how did you come up with the name Dottie’s? Where does Dottie’s Kolaches come from?

Sierra McCleve:
Love that question. Okay, yes. So I came in and the person there was doing a few sweet kolaches, but he wasn’t doing any traditional. Traditional kolache is poppy seed, prune, apricot. He wasn’t doing any traditionals for whatever reason. So I learned the recipe, but I really wanted to do it right. So my sister and I, we started that business together and we flew to Texas and spent a weekend and ate 80 kolaches. Tasted them, took notes, Googled how to reverse carbo overload.
I think we’re taking apple vinegar shots. That doesn’t work by the way. Probably don’t do that. And then we came back and we’re like, “Okay, I fixed the menu.” I was like, “We have to have traditional on here, if we’re going to serve it.” And then expanded the breakfast and lunch menu because you can put so much good stuff in there.
It doesn’t mean you should, but you can put so much good stuff in there. So we expanded the menu and then I would eventually narrow it down. Kind of like my entire menu. I got rid of shaved ice and stuff and really focused on the kolaches. And then I would narrow the kolache menu down. I just wanted it to be really good if we were going to do it. So that helped a lot traveling out there and doing some research and talking to people and even buying some old check cookbooks. And then we called it kolaches on Maine for a while, but I wanted something that would incorporate the sodas because still at that time, in the first two years, I was still focused on sodas. I didn’t want it just to be kolaches at that time. And for me, I decided I wanted to have a 40s, 50s theme.
When we remodeled the building, I wanted to kind of go a little industrial and I was thinking Rosie the Riveter type type thing. I’ve always loved old sailor tattoos. So the swallows and the anchors just like that. It’d be called American traditional tattoos I know now. But always loved that style. And I thought that so that ’40s, ’50s theme worked with that. I decided on having a swallow as the logo. It has a lot more meaning than just the bird and that I like the tattoos. We could dive into that if you want. And then I loved a league of their own growing up. You know Gina Davis, Dottie?

Kyle Knowles:
Mm-hmm.

Sierra McCleve:
That name fit the ’40s and ’50s theme.

Kyle Knowles:
Her name in the movie was Dottie?

Sierra McCleve:
Yep. My grandma’s name was kind of close to that. Her name was Dolly. I thought about dedicating it to her, but I didn’t know it was going to happen. I didn’t know if it would eventually sell. I didn’t want it to be that personal. So it was kind of close enough to my grandma’s name, but I didn’t want it to be her name, but it fit the theme. People then eventually called it Dottie’s instead of just kolache. That’s what people were calling it before. And that’s been so fun. And to build that up and watch that be built, it’s been really, really fulfilling.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. So how long did it take you from first taking over the business to getting to the point where you had a menu, things were running smoothly, and it was called Dottie’s Kolaches?

Sierra McCleve:
Things were running smoothly. That’s a great question, Kyle.

Kyle Knowles:
Or better than at the start, I guess.

Sierra McCleve:
Sure. It took me two years, maybe two and a half to really launch the Dottie’s name. It took me a year to decide. It took me a long time to really decide and then get the logo done and then actually get the sign up and stuff like that. And then from there, I used a theme and the style sheet that we had created to create the menus. So it probably took two years, two and a half years. And then I would refine it and then tweak it and just keep honing in on what I was learning. Don’t serve shaved ice and stuff like that.

Kyle Knowles:
So slimming down the menu.

Sierra McCleve:
Slimming down the menu and really get it focused. And then it probably took though, to really get it running smoothly where I wasn’t having to do the day-to-day, but I was still very, very involved. It took a long time. That took five or six years to really get it going. And I worked in it up until that point. And then when we started Thirst, I had to divide my time a little. So I had to get my systems and checklists really refined so I could step away for a day or two and have it still run and go help out with Thirst, getting that going.
It’ll take longer than you think normally, unless you’re really prepared or experienced and was neither. I was a little naive, which was good because I think the naivety helped me not be scared and to just be determined and push forward because otherwise I mean, it’s hard. It’s not easy. I think it would’ve probably not done it if I would’ve known how much work it was going to be. But I’m super grateful I did.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay, two quick questions and then we’ll move into Thirst.

Sierra McCleve:
Sure.

Kyle Knowles:
What was your favorite kolache and what was your favorite drink?

Sierra McCleve:
Sausage, egg cheese. I ate every single day if I was going savory. I like chili cheese dog too. I don’t even like hot dogs, but those two top savory. And then my favorite sweet one, because I can’t leave that out, would probably be chocolate cream cheese. So good. We did cinnamon minerals too. Those were just probably the top seller of all of it. Love the cinnamon rolls.

Kyle Knowles:
With the same dough of the kolache dough?

Sierra McCleve:
Slight tweak, but pretty darn close. And then my favorite drink, my favorite soda mixer that I created would probably be Johnny and June. So it is a Sprite base with tiger’s blood and coconut cream. It’s really good. And you can do it with Mountain Dew as well, but that was probably my favorite.

Kyle Knowles:
Wow. That sounds delicious.

Sierra McCleve:
It’s really good. It was really, really good.

Kyle Knowles:
‘Cause I love tiger’s blood and I can only imagine it with Sprite. What else did you put with that?

Sierra McCleve:
Coconut cream.

Kyle Knowles:
Coconut cream. Wow. That sounds delicious. Okay, so what year are we at where you’re starting to go and split your time into Thirst? And it’s not Thirst Drinks. Is it just Thirst? It’s just called Thirst.

Sierra McCleve:
Technically on paper, it’s Thirst Drinks.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay.

Sierra McCleve:
[inaudible 00:49:19] The legal registry is Thirst Drinks, but we just go by Thirst now. So that was 2016 when we started Thirst. So I started Dottie’s at 2013 and 2016 we started Thirst. Me and my business partner, Ethan, he was really young at the time in high school and contacted me. I had this shaved ice shack for sale, and he contacted me, wanted to do the shaved ice. And so just like a brief story in how he started, I told him I was open to business inquiries, and he was like 17 or 18 at the time and couldn’t afford this $10,000 shaved ice shack. But he is like, “Hey, would you be partner with me?” And I was like, “Oh, sure. I’ve done shaved ice.”
So we partnered up for two summers and then I was like, “Look, I don’t really want to do this anymore because it’s not really making that much money. We would have to do 32. Either we’re going to do 32 of these shaved ice shacks and you’re now…” He would’ve now been like 19. Or I do a drink shop because I know everything there and I still want to go beat the pants off of Swig just for fun. Just competitive like that. And it just so happened that he had a roommate that his parents owned this building in downtown Salt Lake with a drive through in downtown Salt Lake.
Not the best area, but it had a drive through. And so we were like, “Okay. I was pregnant at the time.” We actually had a meeting at a fizz because we were doing some competitor research. Had a meeting at a fizz. I was pregnant and I was like, “Look, man. If we do this, I’m not going to be able to be boots on the ground every day. I can come up with the brand, the strategy. I can come up with the structure. I can come up with everything to get going. I can come up with a marketing strategies. I’m not going to be boots on the ground. I’m a miserable pregnant lady as it is. Just anytime I’m pregnant and then I’ll have this child that I want to spend time with.” And he was like, “All right.”
I mean, he’s such a hustler. He really is. And he just really grabbed the bull by the horns. I think having that conversation and those clear expectations upfront really helped our partnership, because we actually are very, very similar. And in more circumstances that would’ve caused more problems, but having that conversation up front, so that’s something I would encourage anyone, just have it on paper and probably don’t go into business with family if we’re just giving really quick tips.
So we started in 2016 and probably for the first three or four years I was pretty involved. It started weaning off as he got more experienced. And as I could just let go a little bit more. That’s how we started. So we started in downtown Salt Lake, 1300 South by the Bees Stadium where the Bees play baseball. It was a whirlwind. It was fun. It was really fun coming up with that branding and logo. Our roof is orange. Our colors are orange and white. A nod to the orange crush that I grew up loving.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice.

Sierra McCleve:
When I was younger. And our demographic would feel that too for our target demographic. So we have this bright orange roof downtown Salt Lake, and I remember telling Ethan one time, we’re looking at drive-through, making the drive-through plan. And I was like, “We need to plan on 20 cars.”
And he is like, “Do you really think we’ll get 20 cars in line?” And I was like, “Yes, if we do this, we’re going to do it right. And we need to plan on 20 cars because just being able to fit three cars isn’t going to work. It’ll work for a minute.” We have definitely had more than 20 cars in line and we’ve had probably more than 100 and 150 in some of our grand openings. And that’s been the coolest thing, one of the highlights, just to see that come to fruition. That’s because of-

Kyle Knowles:
It’s so cool.

Sierra McCleve:
… all that hard work, dedication, and the hard work and dedication of Ethan and the team.

Kyle Knowles:
That’s so cool. In that location, did you get a lot of traffic from people going to the baseball games?

Sierra McCleve:
We did, and we did a lot of guerrilla marketing for that too. We would go and flyer every single car.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice.

Sierra McCleve:
Because originally people didn’t really know, because I mean… They could get the gist of it because our slogan was happy drinks and treats. So they could be like, “Oh, it’s kind of like a Swig or whatever.” And get a drink. But we did a lot of on foot marketing to get those people to come over and walk over. And eventually we did. And some people would park on our street to get to the game anyway, so kind of extended our hours to make sure we were open for them and stuff, and just really going. We did a combination of guerilla marketing and then once we really started figuring out social media marketing, those two helped. But originally it was a lot on foot.
It was taking stuff to every single bank in a certain radius just to get the word out, just to start the brand recognition. Working deals with the car dealerships around there and stuff like that too. And just a lot of hustle. A lot of hustle from Ethan and the team for boots on the ground stuff, for sure.
And then just trying to always be ahead of what’s next like, “Okay, well, when we do this, then what are we going to do next?” And when we get this much money, what piece of equipment are we going to upgrade? And just really, really grinding it out. We were in that location for… Let’s see. I think about four years. And then we were able to open our second in Millcreek, and that was huge right before 2020 hit.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. I wanted to get there with… So 2013 Dottie’s Kolaches. 2017…

Sierra McCleve:
2016.

Kyle Knowles:
2016.

Sierra McCleve:
Thirst.

Kyle Knowles:
Thirst. Things are going really well and then something happens in 2020.

Sierra McCleve:
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Knowles:
How did COVID affect Dottie’s Kolaches and Thirst?

Sierra McCleve:
Good question. We were actually super blessed. It helped our business. I still feel weird saying that out loud. There’s still some survivor’s guilt in there a little bit, honestly, because that wasn’t the story for so many restaurants. But for places with a drive-through that could adapt and pivot very quickly, which we did, it ended up being really good. But we didn’t know. I was scared. We had signed the contract on Millcreek.

Kyle Knowles:
The location of the real estate?

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah, with all of this kind of… Let’s see. It was starting to happen. I just didn’t know what was going to happen. And Ethan was like, “We signed it.” I’m like, “Well, we might need to get out of it because I don’t know.” But luckily we pushed through. But for a week and specifically a week for both places, it was really scary because I didn’t know what was going to happen. I didn’t know if we were going to be forced to shut down.
But luckily we were able to stay open. All of our team just hustled so hard to keep that afloat. I mean, staffing was hard. Everyone knows how hard that was. But I think what we saw there is people needed some type of comfort of some type of normalcy. Your freshly baked good, your freshly baked cinnamon roll that tastes the same as it did three months before this hell hole of lockdown was comforting to so many people. It still gives me chills. Same thing with the drinks and treats at Thirst ’cause you couldn’t go inside anywhere.
So just the drive-throughs crushed. And at Thirst, we were very fortunate. Ethan and Rachel were amazing and had been working already on an app integration. We launched that app integration two weeks before things hit and that allowed curbside pickup.

Kyle Knowles:
Wow.

Sierra McCleve:
And delivery, integrated delivery. And that just crushed. The curbside pickup really just crushed too. So that was really fortunate timing and the staffing was so difficult. It was so hard because you had to be… I mean, if you’re a good manager, you had to be understanding that people either needed or wanted to go quarantine. So you just had to adapt and just do it with less people and try to get people time off when you could and work as many shifts as you could, but I feel really lucky that we were able to thrive in that time when so many people didn’t.

Kyle Knowles:
Did you end up being boots on the ground during COVID?

Sierra McCleve:
For sure. I helped out with Thirst when needed, but I was mostly up at Dottie’s.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay.

Sierra McCleve:
Mostly up at Dottie’s being boots on the ground and trying to take shifts. Our baking staff was short-staffed or they needed to take it out so I would be baking. That was hard time. That was a really hard time. One time, I remember probably the closest time I’ve ever been to just losing it and shutting it down was I just had a baker come back from quarantine. They decided to self-quarantine because they had some medical stuff and I was like, “That is totally fine.”
They came back for a week or two and then quit the day before we had Beignet weekend which is always huge, like is crazy. It was really busy at that point, and I was only doing it either on the weekends or once a month at Dottie’s. This is before we rolled out full-time Beignets at Thirst, which is why they have full-time Beignets at Thirst is because we start them at Dottie’s.
But she quit and I was like… And she had just come back. I mean, everyone’s going to do what they’re going to do, whatever. But I was like, “I can’t do this. I’m going to have to go do this two days in a row, baking plus working most of the day.” And so I remember it was probably midnight and I was doing a lot of… I think I was doing 75 hard at the time too. I was doing a lot of fitnessy things and I just went on this intense run and just ran it at as fast as I could for probably half a mile because I can’t sprint. I don’t know. But I don’t know how long I made it. Probably not half a mile.
At the end of that I was just like, “Okay, I can do anything for 24 hours, so just make it through the next 24.” So I ran my butt back home, got a little bit of sleep, and just pushed for 24 hours and made it past that. And then I think that challenge helped for other challenges in the future, but that was one of the biggest ones for sure.

Kyle Knowles:
Wow. It must have been so hard for so many employees, so many different types of… I mean, healthcare. We’re talking about healthcare, but supermarkets, food places like Thirst and Dottie’s. So tell me about Dottie’s and then the subsequent years until sort of sunsetting Dottie’s and the decisions behind that and maybe accelerating the growth of Thirst and how that journey went for you.

Sierra McCleve:
Sure. So I officially closed down Dottie’s officially last fall, supposed to be fall of 2022. And probably for three years prior to that, I knew I needed to shift a little bit. I knew I was imbalanced. I refer to it now as I learned that you have one water of pitcher as a human being. You have one pitcher of water. And this, I guess it’s an analogy, I don’t know. One pitcher of water and your major stuff in your life are your plants. So your family is a plant and your businesses are for sure a plant. But you only have one pitcher of water.
So for me, for a long time, I had family, kids and husband, Dottie’s, Thirst. And even also my relationship with Ethan is very much a important, very, very important part of all that. Ties into the Thirst one, but it’s still almost like its own marriage. I don’t want that sound word, but it really is like you have to communicate kind on that level.
I just knew I didn’t have enough water to go around, and so I knew it was imbalanced. My kids were growing up. I didn’t want to live with that regret of I’m 50 and what did I do when they were little with that time. So I knew I needed to transition some things. So very, very involved in Thirst for three or four years. And then Ethan and I both decided it was probably both something that we wanted to renegotiate the ownership and partnership there.
So we worked on that for a year. That was really hard to go back and forth there. We learned a lot, made it through really well. And so just kind of shifted the dynamics of the partnership and the roles and responsibilities, which has been really good.
So I went from majority to a minority owner and he went to majority, which is good. It’s what he wanted to. And then I knew I still needed to do this thing with Dottie’s. It was either sell it and wait another year or transition. So I didn’t want to wait a year. Once I decided and realized I need to do something different and I’m ready, I decided to try to do wholesale for a year. I was going to actually onboard and either sell it or bring on a partner kind of like my relationship with Ethan, because that worked really well. I work really well in that environment where I can lead and guide and mentor and strategize and do what I really know how to do for the first six months to two years and really get it going and then do something different. I work really well in that realm.
So I was going to do that in Dottie’s. Then had a few things, not pan out with the partner I was looking at working with, but ended up doing wholesale for a year. So wholesales when I would package up, I’d do frozen take and baked kolaches and send them to coffee shops are perfect. Coffee shops, I want to do coffee. They don’t want to mess with food, but they want to have good food. So I do coffee shops. Did that for about a year, kept on one of my staff at Dottie’s. Closed retail the year before. That was really hard. I made a whole video. It was emotional, but it was good.
We had such amazing support from the community. That’s what made it so hard and the team, but it was the right decision. And then after about a year of working wholesale, I was like… And working with Lyn, Lyn really helped me. I have such a belief in a coach.

Kyle Knowles:
How did she help you with that transition then?

Sierra McCleve:
Helping me really realize my core strengths and what filled me up, what charged me up, what filled my batteries, and how everything I was doing every day with Dottie’s was depleting it. It wasn’t my high level, productive, happy, charged up, energized zone. It was a pseudo strength that I was just forcing to happen because I was a little bit… It was hard to let go. It really is like your child. And so huge shout out to Lyn for helping me with that. And once I realized, I was like, “Okay, now there’s like a lot of peace with that and I’m ready for the next chapter and to go learn about it.”
It was really hard because the community loves it. I still think there’s probably some opportunity where someone might come along and pick it up, pick it up and buy it. But I didn’t want to wait another year to market it. That’s how long it can take.

Kyle Knowles:
So it’s still for sale?

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah.

Kyle Knowles:
To anyone listening that’s interested in starting a kolache shop, reach out.

Sierra McCleve:
Reach out. Serious inquiries. We can talk about all the possibilities there. There’s a lot that you could do. I’m hopeful for that. But even if not, I’m just ready for the next chapter and take all those lessons I learned because they’re just so significant and work on the next thing.

Kyle Knowles:
So you spent the past year transitioning sort of. Well, longer than that as far as Dottie’s go. You exited that a little while, what, two years ago? And then now minority ownership in Thirst.

Sierra McCleve:
Correct.

Kyle Knowles:
So what have you been doing?

Sierra McCleve:
I’ve been figuring out what I’m going to do. I’ve been focusing on family time. It’s been so fun. I got a real summer with my kids last summer.

Kyle Knowles:
How old are they?

Sierra McCleve:
10 and six. And I get a real summer with them this year. Christmas. Holidays have been incredible because holiday time for us in a bakery, it’s… Thanksgiving and Christmas are huge.

Kyle Knowles:
Busiest time.

Sierra McCleve:
And so that’s just been incredible to breathe through that and to really take that in and to cherish those moments. So I’ve been doing that and then I can’t not dabble. So I’ve been doing some real estate investing and some… I’ve been working on a tiny house project for the last three years. That’s up and rolling now. Tiny House Rentals in Zion and getting ready to launch some in Tennessee. So that’s nice because I’m interested in it. I can focus on it for a little bit and then I can go do my podcast.
I relaunched my podcast, which we’ve talked about. So all of these things that give me energy, that align with that, that fuel me up, that allow me to meet people and continue to build something, but it doesn’t require all of my time and energy. And saving that for the next thing if I choose to transition to something like that, which I eventually will.
But just choosing the right thing. Another fun thing I’ve been doing to fill my cup and to scratch that itch of wanting to create is business consulting, which has been huge because I can take what I’ve learned and coach or consult and have them go execute and then have more energy for when they come back and the next steps. So it’s like that partnership that I thrive really well in, but I’m not an actual partner. That’s been really cool.

Kyle Knowles:
That’s super cool. So I know we’ve exhausted most of our time here. Just a few more questions for you.

Sierra McCleve:
Sure.

Kyle Knowles:
What’s the book you recommend to people the most?

Sierra McCleve:
If we’re talking strictly entrepreneurship for sure, E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. And then can I do one more because I’ve said that one already?

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah, for sure.

Sierra McCleve:
I might have to say two. How to Win Friends and Influence People. Solid. Recommend that one. Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink. You heard that one yet?

Kyle Knowles:
I haven’t, but I have it on my bookshelf.

Sierra McCleve:
So that one, I think. And then probably the Dichotomy of Leadership after that. I haven’t finished that one yet, but that really does help you balance out that extreme mindset of taking ownership of everything. It’s huge. It was important for me. It was impactful for me. That’s why I recommend it to shift my mindset from blaming my team for doing something wrong, to blaming myself. And there does have to be a balance. You have to hold people accountable. But most of the time when people are pointing the finger at their team or their employees, as they likely might call them, they need to be pointing on back of themselves because there’s something that they missed. They’re not supporting them in some way. So that was really, really impactful for me. I think that that mindset is just valuable.

Kyle Knowles:
I can’t wait to check those books out.

Sierra McCleve:
To tell me what you think.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah, for sure. So just lightning round. Favorite candy bar?

Sierra McCleve:
Oh my gosh, this is going to sound so dumb. I’ve been really eating Built bars for like three years. I just have been on a fitness, kicked the last four. It really helped save my mental health. And so I don’t really eat a lot of candy bars. Hang on. I can dig deep. Candy bar.

Kyle Knowles:
Go back to your childhood, something.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah. Come on.

Kyle Knowles:
You talked about Orange Crush. You’ve got to have a candy bar in there somewhere.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah. I used to love those Whatchamacallits. Okay. Do they still make those?

Kyle Knowles:
They do.

Sierra McCleve:
Okay. So Whatchamacallit probably. I always love a good old-fashioned Snickers.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. Okay. Favorite musical artist?

Sierra McCleve:
Oh. That’s a tough question. Of all time?

Kyle Knowles:
You can only pick one.

Sierra McCleve:
Taylor Swift. I’ll fight anyone on that. I will die on that sword. We could do a whole podcast on that. I’m willing to debate in my DM. So hit me up if you guys have a problem with that.

Kyle Knowles:
Favorite cereal?

Sierra McCleve:
Captain Crunch, of course.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Mack or PC?

Sierra McCleve:
Mac.

Kyle Knowles:
Google, Gmail and Workspace or Microsoft Outlook and Office?

Sierra McCleve:
Gross. There’s only one answer to that, Gmail.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay. Dogs or cats?

Sierra McCleve:
Dogs.

Kyle Knowles:
Phantom or Les Mis?

Sierra McCleve:
Les Mis. Special place in my heart.

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah.

Sierra McCleve:
Awesome. It’s in Salt Lake right now, isn’t it?

Kyle Knowles:
Yeah. I’m going to go see it a week from today.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah. I’m going to take my kids. I just introduced my kids to the soundtrack.

Kyle Knowles:
Awesome.

Sierra McCleve:
I can take my daughter, not my son yet.

Kyle Knowles:
Nice. So where can people find you? What’s your socials?

Sierra McCleve:
You can find me @sierra.mccleve on all the socials at Make A Dent Podcast for the pod. You’ll see my tiny house stuff on my socials there as well. And then I’m pretty sure, yep, Sierra McCleve at LinkedIn. Not on LinkedIn too much. Need to be, but you can find me there too.

Kyle Knowles:
Awesome. So I’ll include links to all things Sierra McCleve, Thirst Drinks, tiny house rentals, and Make A Dent podcast in the show notes. Sierra, I’m so glad Lyn Christian introduced us. You’re a total badass and I’m excited to see what the future holds for you. Thank you for being so generous with your time on this beautiful Sunday morning in Park City. I’ve really enjoyed our time together. Thank you so much.

Sierra McCleve:
Yeah, thanks so much. It has been a joy and an honor. Thank you.

Kyle Knowles:
I was going to say bye at the end. Like it’s a Zoom call.

Sierra McCleve:
Bye.

Kyle Knowles:
Okay, see you. Bye. Talk to you soon.

Sierra McCleve:
Bye.