Jeanette Okwu – influencer marketing agency founder & AI for marketing leader

NOTES

Recorded at White City House near London, England

Jeanette Okwu on LinkedIn

BEYONDInfluence

Influence by Design Podcast

Book Recommendation: The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov and books by Djuna Barnes

SUMMARY

In this episode of Maker Manager Money, host Kyle Knowles interviews Jeanette Okwu, founder and CEO of BeyondInfluence, an influencer and brand ambassador marketing agency.

Jeanette discusses her background in journalism and passion for storytelling. She recognized the potential for leveraging online influencers and community building when social media emerged. She has since pioneered influencer marketing strategies for entertainment, automotive, and consumer goods brands.

Jeanette explains that influencer marketing utilizes famous online personas to promote products, similar to past brand ambassador campaigns featuring celebrities. However, social media has democratized influence, enabling everyday people to build significant, targeted audiences and communities. Her agency identifies and vets influencers, then strategically partners them with brands seeking awareness, engagement, conversions, or other goals.

They discuss trends like micro and nano influencers, affiliate marketing attribution models, and using platforms like TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook for different parts of the marketing funnel. Jeanette stresses the need for brands to understand their target demographic, set goals and budgets, give influencers creative flexibility, and track performance.

On self-care, Jeanette shares how she optimized her schedule, reduced phone use, and microdoses for creativity. She’s a constant learner, taking classes and surrounding herself with experts to stay nimble. For AI, she leverages tools like chatbots for scheduling or spreadsheets and follows select industry resources.

Her favorite book is the Russian literary classic “Master and Margarita” by Mikhail Bulgakov for its philosophical layers. Though she lived in New York City for 8 years, her favorite city is still NYC for the culture, energy, and Brooklyn bagels!

Jeanette Recommendations:

• Leverage multiple social platforms (Instagram, TikTok, Facebook) based on campaign goals.
• Properly vet and give creative flexibility to influencer partners.
• Focus AI learning with communities like The AI Exchange
• For a literary classic, read “Master and Margarita” by Mikhail Bulgakov

Kyle Knowles:
Hello there. Welcome to the Maker Manager Money podcast, a podcast about entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, founders, business owners, and business partnerships from startups to stay ups, to inspire entrepreneurs to keep going, and future entrepreneurs, to just start. My name is Kyle Knowles, and it’s a Saturday morning in London, England. We are recording in the White City House. My guest this morning is Jeanette Okwu. Jeanette is the founder and CEO of BeyondInfluence and Influence and Brand Ambassador Marketing Agency helping clients ride the next wave of marketing. Jeanette is a champion and an independent thought leader on social and emerging technologies with a track record of building and implementing effective integrated marketing and communication initiatives by putting data and storytelling front and center. She is keen to unite her clients with influencers and ambassadors meaningfully to achieve revenue, performance, and transparency. A journalist by training with ears on the ground and a sharp eye, she has a deep understanding and infectious passion for all things digital and social. She has tapped emerging social technologies for small, medium, and Fortune 500 companies globally in the entertainment, automotive, luxury, and consumer product industries.
She spent 20 years in the United States and extensive time in China, and now resides in Europe, gaining knowledge and expertise of emerging trends in the social media space. Jeanette has had several senior management positions at various brands, agencies, and internet startups. Her key areas of expertise include not only firsthand knowledge in trending media, digital marketing and social technologies, but also strong best-in-class strategy and business development. She’s fascinated by how consumers think, behave, and interact with brands in our always on world. Her personal goal is to devise strategies for brands which give the consumer something valuable in return for their attention. As a pioneer in the influence content creator marketing space, she holds numerous board positions as a former advisor member of the American Influencer Council and current member of the steering committee of the Branded Content Marketing Association in Great Britain.
She’s an executive board member of the German Influencer Marketing Council. Jeanette is also voted as one of the top 50 global influencer marketing professionals by the trade organization Talking Influence. She’s a sought after speaker, industry podcast guest, and host of the successful podcast Influence by Design. So as a fellow podcaster, welcome to the Maker Manager Money Podcast. Jeanette.

Jeanette Okwu:
That was a mouthful, right? Thank you so much for having me, Kyle.

Kyle Knowles:
So as an entrepreneur and pioneer and influencer marketing, what inspired you to take the leap and start your own agency?

Jeanette Okwu:
Well, it’s never linear, as you might imagine. So as you already said, I come from journalism and that meant that words text content is to me the most important new idea actually. I’m talking about something that I haven’t talked about in decades. I studied literature, actually, I studied Russian and French literature, so you can see that the love for words and language has already been in my DNA. And when I moved to the states, I didn’t speak a word of English, so I learned the language, because I love to talk, as you can imagine, and also loved the language. So I never took any classes. I just watched reruns of Law and Order and talked to the handyman in our building, and that’s how I picked up the language. And now I’m writing articles and doing podcasts in foreign languages. So yeah, to me, continuing journalism when I moved to the states was not an option.
So I explored other avenues starting to consulting what brands should do, would come from abroad to the United States, because I knew when they wanted to do PR, what the journalists want to hear. And being the bridge builder culturally gave me an advantage to help them launch in the United States. And from there when YouTube and Facebook started, I was hooked. Had a startup as well that didn’t make it in 2008 with a big crash, but the digital space was my route. And then in 2010 when Instagram emerged and Pinterest emerged, I just thought there’s something there there with this whole influencer thing. We worked in several agencies to develop strategies, how to leverage social media and influencers already fairly early on. And then it was just a natural progression that eventually I would create my own agency.

Kyle Knowles:
I’m just wondering if you could explain influencer marketing to people who don’t understand. I mean, I think a lot of people understand what an influencer is, but what is influencer marketing and what do you do to facilitate influencer marketing?

Jeanette Okwu:
Sure. So you might be surprised, but influencer marketing is nothing new. Think of Santa Claus and Coca-Cola. Think of Babe Ruth. Think of the Queen’s portrait on a porcelain cup. This is all influencer marketing you use a persona can be real or not real. Mickey Mouse for example. It’s not a real person, but it has a heft. It has an influence. These people have some gravity that other people navigate towards and therefore they have power over purchasing power. So utilizing those in the various marketing verticals that there are is a smart thing to do, because people buy from people, people don’t buy from brands. So that’s basically it in a nutshell. And then it trickles down to a lot of details, nuances, how to actually develop an influencer marketing strategy and implement an influencer marketing strategy. And to me, the defining moment that influencer marketing became a thing is with the democratization of this one here, the iPhone, where all of a sudden the power of influence was given to, well, let’s say the common people like you and I.

Kyle Knowles:
Thank you. I love that answer. So if I was a brand and I wanted to hire you to have an influencer, bring brand awareness to my brand, my company, my product, what are the steps that you go through with a company to set that up for them?

Jeanette Okwu:
My short answer would be not one influencer that doesn’t do anything, that’s an ambassadorship. Like many brands do. They pick an ambassador who’s the lightning rod for their brand or for their product? Take Ronaldo or the Beckhams or you name it, any celebrity. That’s not really what I’m talking about. That’s a PR communication measure. In terms of influencer there is in the meantime, it’s pretty sophisticated now, so what I would do is I would ask, okay, what’s the brief to your brand? And then the answer would be, we don’t have one, that’s for agency, always very, very big pain points. So then you have to first go and write that brief for the brand so you know what to do. And based on that, you then find people who match either the product or the brand who are good representatives of those people.
That means that they not only have to be a fit visually, if we think Instagram that needs to align, you also need to take a look at reputationally and we go very far back with when we look at some people, have there been any murky things happening? Have these people said anything? Are they clean and are they safe to use for a brand? Because for a brand, it’s always about brand safety in the end. And then these influencers are given some details. Some brands like to almost dictate what these internet personalities are supposed to say. That’s not the way to go. They should have their creative freedom, they should know how to speak to their audience, because that’s how they grew. And then it’s about how you use these various people in various categories.
First of all, I would ask, what’s your budget? If you think influencer marketing is for free, just because the influencer can align with you to your famous brand, that’s not going to count anymore. You need to shell out some substantial dough, as I may say, if you really want to make a mark. And then what I’d like to do is I would like to create a big awareness situation with some bigger influencers. Then I will put a set of smaller ones underneath and then an even smaller one below that, because those guys are going to convert if a brand wants to, I don’t know, make sales downloads or have email newsletter signups, et cetera. The objective is always important as well. And then the way you set it up, you can measure it and then you can have some reporting in between, you find these influencers, use technology to see who is the audience, because that’s the important thing.
The influencers just the medium. So example, if I want to sell a lipstick, I’m launching a lipstick, I want to target 18 to 24-year-old girls in let’s say Germany. And I have this influencer who has 3 million followers, a German one, and the brand says, “Oh, that’s going to be a success. She has 3 million followers. We’re going to sell the hotcakes, those lipsticks.” I go then use technology and maybe able to find out that 70% of the followers are middle-aged white man in Brazil, because she has such beautiful long legs. So that means that the influencer is potentially still a candidate to work with, because 13% of her audience is exactly the audience that I want to reach, but she charges 25K for a post. Now knowing that 13% are only of interest to me, gives me leverage to negotiate, and if all goes well, I can negotiate it down, because I have a finite budget. And then the whole process of creating content, posting the content, gathering the insights, also measuring if it really moved the needle in Germany within a particular age group then comes to play.
And that feeds into all the other marketing activities that are around this launch. Paid media, events, everything that normal marketing or the other aspects of marketing also then kick in.

Kyle Knowles:
All right, so I know we’re moving in a direction with influencer marketing to more of that affiliate acquisition kind of style. So is it less expensive to higher influencers? And also the other question I have is what are the numbers of followers that are necessary to even get into be an influencer? How many followers do you need to have to be an influencer?

Jeanette Okwu:
You could have 500 followers and you can be an influencer, because you influence your vicinity. Those smaller ones are very attractive, what you just mentioned in terms of affiliate marketing, because they’re higher converting, because oftentimes everybody knows each other, the influencer or the creator. It’s also a term. TikTok for example, calls their influencers creators. And more and more influencers would like to be called creators, because influencer have sort of like a bad rap, because of some things that happened in recent years when we were still like the Hulk bursting out of our T-shirts. And so, the size doesn’t matter really. It’s about the influence that you have on your community and that can be a small community, it can be a large community. And you mentioned already affiliate marketing and influencer marketing. I am very excited about this trend. I think this actually will grow over the next few years, because brands have come to the conclusion that they also want to see the ROI of their spend.
Influencer marketing is not cheap. Some of these creators or influencers ask for hefty amounts for a post, and the brands want to see what does it get me in the end? How is this measurable? And attribution in influencer marketing is actually a tough nut to crack because if I influencer have a product that I want to speak about, I get paid by a brand, I even get a code that my audience can use to purchase a product, I have a UTM link that directly shows if somebody clicks on the link that I provide in my story, then goes somewhere. But that journey is not linear anymore. What if the visitor then falls off is not ready to purchase yet? The code doesn’t work in a couple of months. Let’s say if it’s about a car that’s a long purchasing process and then I can’t attribute it to the influencer, because marketers measure last click while potentially that influencer was the first one who brought it up to the attention of the purchase being made or the person who made the purchase. And with affiliate marketing, that problem is solved.
Obviously you need also technology that tracks that. The issue with that is that influencers who are somewhat aware of how they perform are hesitant to opt into those platforms, because you need to have a direct connection to those technologies in order to be measurable. And that’s the issue. So therefore, the affiliate piece is oftentimes very popular and smaller follower categories, because you give those people an opportunity to make some money based on the sales that you basically bring into the collaboration.

Kyle Knowles:
I know there’s several channels like Instagram reels for example, or YouTube shorts, there’s TikTok, we’ve got all these different social media channels. What do you find to be the best channel for influencer marketing?

Jeanette Okwu:
Also, no one perfect answer. I believe in that it is an ecosystem and some very smart creators have figured it out. They know where their strengths and they know where their weaknesses is. TikTok, for example, is very great in creating awareness around a younger audience, but also older folks are now onto TikTok, my mother hanging out there. Now, will she be influenced to purchase something at her age? Probably not. But if an influencer has a diverse presence on numerous channels, they can then determine their own funnel basically, because if you create an awareness aspect on TikTok, Instagram is still the more converting platform where you can then drive purchases, et cetera. I wouldn’t underestimate Facebook for specific categories. It’s not so much out there anymore, it’s more internally. Facebook is betting very much on community, so that’s something to take into account and for sure, YouTube is a nature of force. And then there are others, Twitch, for example, very niche, very focused on either lifestyle or gaming.
Those two, I would count out potentially X, formerly Twitter, because it’s a hostile environment for me. I’m never really considering that one. And there is LinkedIn also for B2B marketing, which is its own beast.

Kyle Knowles:
Thank you. So being an entrepreneur, you’re on several boards, you’ve founded different companies. How do you take care of yourself and what advice could you give to other entrepreneurs that are very busy? I know you’re taking classes, you’re doing all kinds of things. What’s some advice you can give to entrepreneurs to take care of themselves and not get burned out?

Jeanette Okwu:
Okay. No, it’s getting personal. It’s very interesting too. Yeah, well, I could say, okay, I do yoga. I have a cat, and that cat sits oftentimes next to me when I have conference calls. I don’t need the stress ball. I have my stress fur, I just do this, it’s very relaxing. But I used to have three phones, and when I woke up in the morning, I had my phones basically glued to my hands, like Aquaman, and I stopped looking at phones at least two hours before I go to bed, stopped doing it, because it also is very helpful for your sleep. You need to take a break. And I started micro-dosing, which to me is fantastic. I’m using it for focus and for creativity, which is very important to me. And I’ve been doing this now for almost two years, and I can highly recommend it, because it makes me also more productive.
I set my timer for focused work and then take a break. And I do, as you just mentioned also, I do classes. I’m a constant learner and I think that’s very important. So your brain stays nimble, stays very, very flexible and limber.

Kyle Knowles:
I wanted to talk to you just quickly about AI and how you’re using AI on a personal level and in your business as well.

Jeanette Okwu:
Yeah, on a personal level, it’s fairly easy. You can create with ChatGPT, your own personal assistant, you put in your weekly or daily planner, and AI is basically managing your schedule. If anything happens and a meeting is overrun, you can just communicate this with your assistant chat and he’s adjusting the entire schedule for you. I found though that it is more work for me to put in the changes throughout the day when I just can just go with the flow. I still, and that’s a confession, I still love my handwritten calendar in front of me, which I put together every morning. I write down what I need, where I have my fixed calls and meetings and then my to-dos that I have to do whenever I get to it. I’d like to check it off, I check it off with red. So I think that’s my analog AI. Professionally, being in the marketing space and the content creating space, I use it almost every day. I produce articles, I write emails and I use it.
I also find AI in professional ways using, I’m not very good in math. And with AI, my whole issue with spreadsheets is a thing of a past, because now I am very confident using it and applying all those formulas with ease.

Kyle Knowles:
For someone, an entrepreneur, business owner, a partner, someone that’s running a business, what’s the best way for them to get up to speed with what they can do with generative AI?

Jeanette Okwu:
The problem is with the AI hype is that there’s so much information out there, it’s so much. So I think the art is to get rid of stuff and really focus on a few new sources that you can rely on. I’ve done the legwork. I have tried a lot, I’ve signed up to a lot, I also subscribed to a lot, spent a pretty penny on those subscriptions, canceled them and basically zoned into the AI exchange. It’s worth every penny. I think it’s 150 bucks per year. And I think that is a community where you can constantly learn, because they already select things for you that is important. So they do the legwork. And then there is the AI Marketing Institute with Paul Roetzer. Fantastic. They do events all the time. There are actually free introductory courses each month that people can take in the marketing space and then decide if they want to become a member and fantastic source. And then I have, meanwhile a couple of friends who are in this space that I can learn from, is fantastic.

Kyle Knowles:
What’s a book that you recommend the most to people?

Jeanette Okwu:
So as I mentioned earlier, I studied Russian literature and to this day, my favorite, favorite book is from Bulgakov, Master and Margarita. It also exists in English, phenomenal, because on a philosophical level it is so layered. So the basic story is Soviet Union in the twenties and politics and life and society, everything is surrounded around housing. So the problem of getting an apartment is omnipresent. And there are forces at work and there are schemes to get an apartment. It’s all political. There is a murder mystery and the parallel story is actually a biblical one. It plays in Jerusalem and it’s the internal turmoil. Pontius Pilates has battling his migraine and ending up saying, okay, Jesus needs to be put on the cross and the reason behind it. So those two parallel stories, it’s very multilayered, but somebody who likes to read and think, that’s my favorite book.
And then I have others obviously, that are more popular. And then there is a writer called Djuna Barnes. She’s a suffragette American, traveled Europe with Henry Miller and those creative people also in the first part of the 20th century. That’s also very interesting reads. Not easy ones, but interesting ones.

Kyle Knowles:
Excellent. Is there something that you’ve changed your mind about recently? And if so, what is it?

Jeanette Okwu:
If I changed my mind about something? Cutting me off guard here. Maybe America.

Kyle Knowles:
What’s changed?

Jeanette Okwu:
The politics thing are as such that I have a hard time to say, okay, I want to move back. I always said would love to move back to America, because I really enjoyed living there for 20 years. I think over the years I’ve lost all my exoticism and I just blended in with everybody else. I think recent political manifestations make it hard for me to say, okay, I can… Actually, even my daughter says she doesn’t even want to go to a university in the States and she’s American. And so, I hope that things will settle for the better. So I think where I changed my mind.

Kyle Knowles:
You’ve lived all over the world. You’ve traveled all over the world. What is your favorite city in the world?

Jeanette Okwu:
It’s New York. Yeah, I’ve lived there also for eight years. I was visiting last year and it changed, but it’s still the same. To me, actually, I posted on my Instagram, which is not a public profile. First thing I did when I arrived was I went to Brooklyn Bagels on 26th Street and I got myself the biggest sesame bagel and some schmear and some lox and I was just in heaven. I think that that’s the best bagel anywhere and I love them. And then following is I think Paris.

Kyle Knowles:
I love those answers. So I just have a lightning round of questions and these are just for fun. Favorite candy bar?

Jeanette Okwu:
Twix.

Kyle Knowles:
Favorite musical artist?

Jeanette Okwu:
Oh that’s an easy one. Prince. Prince. And Prince.

Kyle Knowles:
Favorite cereal?

Jeanette Okwu:
Just simple, plain, old cornflakes.

Kyle Knowles:
Mac or PC.

Jeanette Okwu:
Mac all the way.

Kyle Knowles:
Google or Microsoft?

Jeanette Okwu:
Google.

Kyle Knowles:
Dogs or cats?

Jeanette Okwu:
Cats, dogs too.

Kyle Knowles:
Phantom or Les Mis?

Jeanette Okwu:
Les Mis.

Kyle Knowles:
Awesome. I know they’re watching the clock over here and they’re going to kick us out. I would love to continue the conversation, maybe even over Zoom, maybe have a part two to this since it’s been so shotgun and short. But thank you, Jeanette, for taking the time out of your busy schedule to meet with me this morning. I’m so glad that we were able to connect through Section. I hope our paths cross again and that we can continue the conversation in a part two.

Jeanette Okwu:
Thank you so much, Kyle. It was such a pleasure. Thank you.